KOR: "TTT2 Needs to be Changed to 3/5 Tournament Standard"
AAK ON Friday, January 25, 2013 at 9:05PM 
Top US Tekken competitor KOR disrelishes one major aspect of his Tekken related travels: randomness. KOR wrote an article in facebook outlining his reasonings for his want for the change. He mentions that the riotous damage within the game defninitely leads to victories to the weaker player. You can read the full article and the link below.
Petition to Change the Tournament Standard on Tekken Tag Tournament 2
Why I feel Tekken Tag Tournament 2 should be changed to a 3/5 Tournament Standard, Just like UMVC3.
Just like every game out there, players put their heart into practicing, their money into traveling, and their time into becoming the best; as a competitive gamer there is nothing more than I would like is to see a return on the time I put into gaming.
That return is simple, winning. I can speak for the FGC when I say, it surely is disheartening to travel 5 miles to over 1000 miles, pay to enter a tournament and then lose in the most non-gratifying way as possible.
This change to a better format will yield more players to attend tournaments and events, the love for the game and the urge to compete and become the best is leveled fairly and not heavily favored in an unfavorable play style.
For those who may believe that is a plea or an excuse of top players for losing, you’re wrong. I’ve been to several TTT2 majors, gotten this opinion from novice to intermediate to top players, spoken to international players, and have studied the game in and out. This opinion is strong within our community, I have been playing for over 7 years and no Tekken in the past has needed this change until now.
I feel tournament organizers should implement 3/5 games as a tournament standard for TTT2. My reasons are the following:
- Tekken has always had smaller turnouts in numbers in comparison to that of UMVC3 and SF4 AE, and even other Capcom and Namco games. The 3/5 game standard would not run longer than any other 2D game [even when run at 2/3].
- Surely the rounds are 80 seconds, and could last a long time, but also can be found on the other end of the spectrum with matches running by so fast. The 3 games can be over with as little as 9 full combos and a mix-up.
- Combo damage is just too high in TTT2, as simple as a couple of hits and then one launch to Tag Assault and then wall combo can be the end of the round (without being able to even hit the tag button), and with more moves leading to a combo potential- Tekken players know this, and when it does happen, you know you never lost to the player, but to the game. This is not what it means to be competitive fighting pro gamer.
- The momentum of the game can shift so fast, away from you, just like UMVC3. it’s not about option selection like Street Fighter, there is not ONE clear cut answer to every situation, there are several. A player who plays without fear, calculation or knowledge is in a complete gamble of his win, it could work out for him or it could completely throw him into a loss; the other competitor is playing extremely cautious because of knowledge and calculation but falls to a launcher and loses a round, having to play catch up with the life. Tekken was never this risky, and even with two characters, the risk factor is weighted heavily on the player who plays without fear, knowledge and calculation.
- Tekken is a game of calculation, adaptation, sometimes taking necessary risk without much reward, and taking unnecessary risk for much reward. Some call it the chess of fighting games. I think a game with such an element of intellect should be played at a set which displays the finer talent of the competitors rather than who can find openings for a launch.
- We want the scene to grow and 2/3 game format is killing off our established players, which in turn, is slowly diminishing the amount of new players to step in the scene. Established players know how to play, and when they lose in such a manor, their morale to continue on falls strongly. We need our players to feel they were not cheated out of a win.
- Tournament organizers should want a 3/5 tournament format for Tekken. You have better matches, more rewarded victories, you have players coming back for a taste of vengeance rather than players who feel that the state of the game is not worth their time.
I honestly feel just like how tournaments like Major League Gaming, Kumite in Tennessee [KIT] who have implemented a 3/5 tournament standard for Tekken Tag 2, more tournaments would be worth attending. It is a law of statistics though that smaller sets will be more random.
We can pay to travel and join with the peace of mind that we will lose because we didn’t adapt in time, not because we lost to the game system, and walk away with knowing why I lost, and how to come back stronger.
Let’s try to keep the scene alive, get more players to attend and play a fair game. Let’s make our tournaments more exciting where the strongest players will make it to the end and the perpetual valor to continue traveling and become the best in this competitive game a force.
Thanks,
KOR and the Tekken Community
Reader Comments (90)
well, when the players like knee, hao, and/or only practice say the damage is too high, then maybe it should be looked at. since they're playing at the highest level and have been doing so for the longest amount of time, their input should be the most regarded. otherwise, the game would be changed to accommodate those who wouldn't dedicate themselves to it anyway.
Kor is a model, an engineer and a tekken vet.
Wow. thats awesome.
I have given up on TTT2, I was never really anygood at it anyway. But now I dont even stand a chance when I play online.
I will be interested in the next game. Hopefully everything can be scaled back. Characters (so you can learn match ups) strings (too many things to learn to defend against) stages (some clearly benefit certain characters) and the most important thing, the damage.
In fact, remove the crush system! and solo mode (no one likes it LBSH)
The problem is everything is too much. Which in turn makes the game not fun. I know tekken 4 was a bad game but at least they tried some different things.
It sad to say that I have more fun playing MK, a game with lots of problems then I do with a more "serious" game. I have played MK for 3 years and have entered a tournament for it. Was great fun.
I just hope injustice will not be as broken as MK was at the beginning.
If you can get a casual player base, your scene will eventualy grow.
Bye, yours truely, a tekken scrub.
3/5 is very necessary
You know, we here (in China) have had TT2 not long after it was launched in Japan, and there is no 3/5 standard for Tag either here or in Japan or Korea (I'm not sure about other Asian-Oceania countries such as Thailand, Australia), and we all managed to adapt without any problem. Americans get the game for a few months and can't handle the changes? This game is not that much different from T6, paraphrasing a quote that one of the EC players made in the thread following NEC, the change from BR to Tag2 was much less than DR to 6 or 4 to 5.
I've been watching a lot of matches on YT lately, and some of the top tier American players are just playing very poorly. Fab pretty much throws every major match with his strategy of poking with b2 and not doing any lows, and then writes something about how the system is lopsided. These players really need to step their games up. Reviewing the NEC match, if Aceunlimited came here to play or to Korea or Japan, he would've gotten destroyed pretty easily, so why aren't Fab and these guys, who have travelled around the world to play Tekken, cleaning up shop? I don't mean to specifically pick on Fab (though seriously, citing that Miguel is bad against Capos as his reason for getting knocked out of SCR? He has BOB on his team! And Inkog beat EBM with Bryan-Bruce, both of whom have really hard time againsts Capos... give me a break), but he's the most notable example of a so-called 'top level' player performing well under expectations.
At the same time, some US players, such as Inkog, Naps, Rip (surprisingly) and EBM are playing really, really well. These other players (which includes Kor) need to stop complaining and get back to practicing instead of reminiscing about the glory days of BR. Or heck, if they really can't, they should just push for BR exclusive tournaments... it would be a lot more productive then complaining about Tag2.
Also to add, Tekken Tag2 matches last quite a bit longer than BR matches... 3/5 sets would take forever to run.
Also one more point (this was mentioned earlier but is sort of important), MvC3 is one round per game, unlike Tekken where we have 3/5 rounds per game. The one round issue was one of the major arguements for pushing 3/5 game sets for MvC... how does that work for Tekken? I'd agree with randomness being a slight factor if we had 2/3 rounds (four rounds to win in a three game set) for a game but it really doesn't apply to 3/5 rounds (six rounds to win in a three game set).
Also also: "Established players know how to play, and when they lose in such a manor, their morale to continue on falls strongly. We need our players to feel they were not cheated out of a win." This reflects badly on the dedication of America's 'established' players.
Second to wanting Aris to do a discussion panel/podcast on the issue.
Typical, you blame the tournament format, the tier, the game system. Then you tell new comers to look into their own game, telling them tekken is a game of hard work.
Dismantling KOR's poorly constructed arguments, pt1
False Analogy:
UMVC3 is fighting game with high damage. TTT2 is also a fighting game with high damage. UMVC3 is 3/5 tournament standard. Ergo, TTT2 should also be 3/5 tournament standard.
This false analogy falls apart when examined more closely. First, as others have noted, one match in MVC3 is roughly the equivalent of one round in TTT2. In MVC3, once all characters are defeated, the match is over. In TTT2, one must defeat (entirely) one opponent's character three times. TTT2 has multiple options for changing characters with relative safety: tag crash, TA into no action or action + stance, tag bufferable launchers, tag-in cross chop or slide (situational). Even raw tag is viable under multiple circumstances: moves/combos that leave opponent at a distance far enough to afford free tag, raw tag into parry or autoblock stance. AFAIK, safe exchanges in MVC3 come only at the cost of (at least) two super meters.
The average match in UMVC3 takes 1.5-2 minutes. The average TTT2 match takes upward of 3. This is, as noted above and frequently in the existing discussion, because of very different game mechanics between the two systems. Consequently, on the low end of the spectrum, a set sweep in UMVC3 will take about 4 mins and some change. A set sweep in TTT2 (at 3/5) will take over 9 minutes. A set that goes the distance, assuming each game still lasts as short as 1.5mins and 3mins will take 7 minutes and some change for marvel, 15 minutes plus for tekken. So, TTT2 is roughly twice as long. These numbers are taken from a relatively small sample of Youtube vids of American tournaments. Im sure that a larger sample will reflect a similar, if not a more disparate ratio.
There are lots of problems when examining closer all over the place Defcon you don't have to go into depth with logical analysis really. Here are some.
1) Hasty generalization fallacy.
The entire idea of an article like this calling to arms on a Tekkensite, or a famous Tekkenplayers facebook, leads to a biased sample. So no shit this notion gets support when you're basically asking:
"Do you want to play more matches in tournaments when you play Tekken?"
"Do you want streams of Tekken to be longer?". ... ps if you don't you're a scrub (false assumption) or you don't love the game (false assumption) and you EABOD's for breakfast (might be true).
I mean, you could interchange Tekken above with any game on earth, even Pong, and expect a resounding Yes! as an answer amongst its fanbase. That doesn't mean that it's for the best of the game or the population as is but it would be the absolute knee-jerk reaction.
It's not "ignorant"
you're a dumb fuck infamousmindedto think otherwise. It requires more thought and a will to sacrifice your own enjoyment for the greater good of the game which is nothing short of admirable in my book. You can try to ignore that Tekken is boring for most people to watch on streams; that doesn't make the fact go away. What should be asked is what we can do about it in order to get new players (if this is what we want) and how to change this way of looking at the game. Btw, I will not go into the (false) assumption that the more 'fair' a game is the more fun it is and/or more will play it. That would be a proper paper in itself. The problem, and what pisses me off, is when you than try to lie to the entire population (i.e all mixed stream watchers for instance) that this won't affect time constraints in order to get your will furthered. Don't fucking lie.Since those of us that argue against it are speaking solely about the game on mixed streams how about asking "Do you want to see less of the top 16 matches due to time-constraints at Evo / MLG and us increasing match-length?". How about posting a question about match-length and/or airtime for Tekken in a general FGC forum? How would this affect the yes/no response-rate? Why not include the korean/japan population in the sample since they are the most knowledgeable? Shouldn't players who actually play not JUST tekken be heard from as they actually have a frame of reference? If this is to be truly a decisions to standardize something you need a big samplesize and not just 'Kor, Zoolander & Friends with likes' on facebook.
2) There's a paradox between the game being random, having high damage launchers that are easy to connect and matches taking a longer time than those in BR.,
You people who believe the first sentiments will have to explain the second part or deny it flat out - which would be silly. Is there anybody who honestly believes that games don't take longer than they used to? If you do more damage than ever, and rage is stronger than ever before, and it's easy to connect 'random' launchers - why do games take longer? Do you see any problems in combining these ingredients in your pancake?
3) The appeal to authority fallacy.
Kor and others are referred to as pro's even though they haven't really proven themselves in this game yet on prior merits. The gameplay in west is nowhere near optimzed.
Why do you want to change the rules of a tournament to accommodate (still) non-optimized gameplay?
When people TA every single combo and don't punish TA's at the wall etc as a standard of course it becomes a different game. Do you fail to see the correlation between people giving each other rage all the time for free and high damage? Let me remind you that this hasty judgement mindset was exactly what almost banned solo mode or DLC characters right of the bat. I would estimate at least 75% of those who were in favor of banning solo-mode didn't even know how to approach a solo-mode character in theory.
If Koreans, who play the game at a higher level and have played it for a longer time, have 2/3 matches as a standard it's pretty bold that Americans don't want to follow suit after having the game for 6months thinking they are of a greater knowledge on how to 'fix' the game. America can't produce a single great Mishima player but they can argue in tierthreads for years over how broken the character is. The most played teams are simply copycat teams from various korean players posed of as if they have come to the player through some act of enlightenment. Meanwhile we see evidence like Knee now being more dominant than ever etc, how the asians play the game in 2/3, and that even in west there are people regularly (random?) winning tournaments but it's ignored and not addressed due to confirmation bias.
Here's a hard truth and no, put down that burrito and stop jacking off and really take this to heart:
If a new game of a series was to be changed, and adapted, according to Pro's from a prior game early in its lifespan we'd all go straight to hell ©Aris
We'd still all be playing Tekken Tag 1 if we followed that notion.
I think Reality (a.k.a. Young man river/YMR) makes several good points. Besides it's not Americans complaining, just KOR on his period, crying over Facebook. Do you see the Tekken community on Zaibatsu or SRK jumping on this bandwagon? Didn't think so.
I'm surprised people are complaining about "TOO MUCH DAMAGE WAHH" while timeouts are also a regular occurences. Maybe, just maybe, people need to play online more...
"BUT TEKKEN ONLINE IS NOT TEKKEN!!! WAHHH!!"
You play online Tekken for EXPERIENCE, that you will see every kind of shenanigans out there and be able to at least know the setup and learn to deal with it when it matters. Playing online too will teach you how to handle frustrations too, something that Aris needs (no offense bro... but watching you play sometimes I can see you winning if you didn't lose your cool).
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There's nothing imbalanced about this game, people who says so are either fooling themselves, or don't know how to use the tag system properly. Maximizing your red life is so important in this game. You can't spam Tag Crashes and Tag Assaults everytime (like people are doing). Then they complain about the opponent doing too much because they gave them rage and their red life is gone. Sheesh...
The game being random isn't the issue, it's people always putting themselves in a bad situation where one crucial mistake can kill them off. Learn to pick your spots. Koreans do, Japanese people do, which don't we?
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And randomness what? The game teaches you to adapt to your opponents strategies quick. Carmen is right. Asian countries don't have this problem, despite being just as busy in their life just like us. It's just American culture to blame something instead of swallowing the fact that you got bodied and you need to prepare more. One of the best (if not the best) play in Australia which is named MMT taught us King players to have a mindset of blaming yourself after a loss and LEARN FROM IT. Yeah the loss hurts, let that motivate you. Even when you play for 5 years and consider yourself a vet, nothing should stop you from learning the game.
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I'm concerned more about this game getting interest for others, what I know is UPSETS ARE HYPE. SALT IS GOOD. Do you guys watch March Madness? NFL Playoffs? That is hype. You know the games matter, you know every single decision can make or break your year. I want that here.
Ignorant huh... I have been playing this franchise since Tekken 1, i'm hardly a new generation tekken player. The reality is 3/5 will make tournaments run too long, it's not unnecessary. People definitely will get bored and further put of Tekken which is exactly what we don't want.
Most of you people calling for this, all I ever hear from you is bitching about the game, it makes me wonder why you are even here..
It seems the argument is that the game is too random. If this was the case you would be having random winner's every tournament.... I don't see that happening and it is true America's standard of tekken play is not high enough and the game hasn't been out for long enough.
However, I actually do agree it needs a little bit of a re-balance system wide. I think the damage is a bit excessive especially in rage. Hopefully namco gives the game some more support and does this or increases the life somewhat or something But you are going to see set's go to go to 5 matches all the time if we follow what KOR want's which is a definitely due to a vested interest due to his failures....
Personally even I do not want to sit through another law, law / Bob Miguel grand final at evo and if it went to 5 set's the internet would explode with hate....
no matter what excuses are, when you play against new player or not...
both players will play on same match merits.. it's not like the game is favoring new player over top players.. it's an illusion!
whatever made that random move hit you.. a player need to sit back and think and plan your game play style in away that fits with new ttt2 merits
some can argue against certain characters balance.. but that exists in any game.. and most character can achieve you winning if you are willing to stick and analyse them long enough..
there is only one thing i dislike about ttt2 in general.. and it's not related to game being unfair or fav-newbs etc...
which it is very less forgiving..
once you get hit by long combos.. getting back to turn match for your favor is very hard..
simply because the short time for each match will force you to rush up to find away to get damage.. and against defensive players.. it's not impossible but it's a lot of pain!
3/5 very necessary. Just accept it for what it is. Its always been the tournament standard. since Tekken 2 people.
Aris you seriously need to do a podcast on this one. This is a very touchy subject. I think a podcast with you and MYK is essential, maybe even with KOR. Reading theses comments from pple who are not thinking clearly about what they are saying. Even Just Frame James is in full support for 3/5. Its like that for a reason. so badmouthing KOR because hes exposing the truth! is not the answer here. Trolls coming over here from the Soul Calibur community, doesnt make it any better.
people seem to think 3/5 will stop 'better' players from losing to 'randoms', maybe it will, sometimes, i guess. but it just means the rest of the tournament will be jammed with other matches between two turtling players which go for six months. the benefit is not there.
5/9 rounds, 1 match, arena only, double blind, double blindfolds, hitboxes, juiceboxes, eightarcs, no button macros, one confag, two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a saltshaker half-full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... Also, a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether, and two dozen amyls.
@isomonotek....lets be serious here. What do you think about this?
The problem is that all the American players who loved Tekken Tag 1 are old, have jobs, lives, etc, and don't have the time to learn about, or even get good at, Tekken Tag 2.
I haven't had the time to learn to play the game very well. I lose online, too. But I won't blame the game for that.
This is a good & also lame excuse for veteran players who get their ass beaten up..Remember that every day is not ur day..in TT2,its very rare case in challenge or ranked matches that u get a whole combo which drain ur health to almost 10% & if still u are unable to tag out ur char after a whole combo,then problem is not in game its in u,get some better excuse for loosing ffs noobs..
That's not true. TTT1 was the greatest Tekken ever. This is coming from someone who has been playing this franchise since 94, years later when Tekken 3 came out, OMG it took fighters by storm. Then Tag 1 it was a wrap. This franchise wouldn't be what it is today with out the " old vets" as you say. So pay homage and show some respect. Saying 3/5 is not an excuse for old vets. It makes logical sense. If it ain't broke then dont fix it. This has always been the standard. I feel like this topic has decided our community in many ways. Old vets and new generation. There is simply no comparison. Tekken has always kept the same formula while expanding on it and that's great but 3/5 again for the last time is very necessary and otherwise is falsly incorrect.