What happened to Tekken was the fact that it gave rise to the most creative and free form combo system out of any fighting game in the world. And while doing so, Tekken maintains the integrity of being a deep and intricate competitive tournament worthy game simultaneously. If you want to return to the days of barinless, stagnant, and boring juggles, play Tekken 4.
Been playing TTT2 Prologue for a while, and Tag Assaulting is brilliant. Can't wait for TTT2.
Really reminds me of that CCC thread on TZ "What happened to Tekken"
AAK - One could argue that such a combo system makes the game much more brain dead, and a hell of a lot more annoying to new players. Way too much set-ups/tricks to learn.
Something braindead would be something like a Sagat v Guile match where they're doing nothing but chucking fireballs and plasmids at each other all day... and then getting a lucky standing roundhouse into ultra.
Tekken doesn't have any of that. If you want to output damage, you have to work for it. You need to practice and make sure your execution is on point or you'll drop the combo. Also, there needs to be a reward to the player for landing a launcher or punishing correctly. With the current system for Tekken, the best player will always universally win.
And the whole argument about the juggle length and damage is EXTREMELY and UNFAIRLY exaggerated towards the Tekken series. Every fighting game is composed of high damage juggles:
Let's not even begin to talk about Marvel vs Capcom 3. Tekken has by far the greatest combo system out of any other fighting game with how much versatility and freedom it offers you especially with the extremely diverse movelist for every character. It's a staple in the series that's one of the hallmarks of enjoyment I get from it. But on top of that, Tekken also has the most intricate system for movement and wakeup compared to any other fighting game while maintaining a visceral and appealing presentation which makes it the best fighting series in existence IMO. Learn to love it and cherish it, because Tekken does it better than any other game out there.
About the argument for new players, I definitely say to keep the integrity of Tekken's combo system. The only thing that needs to be changed is the movement. Make it easier to move and sidestep so that newer players can feel like they have a grasp on the basics and they can feel the thrill of whiff punishing a lot better. But again that will compromise the integrity of the system Tekken has developed over the years by turning it into a complete turtle fest with such a strong backdash. But that is IMO the core change that needs to happen to get people hooked into Tekken. The combo system is beautiful and fun the way it already is IMO.
Thanks for the long reply, I appreciate a good discussion.
Can you explain to my why every (past) player I ever talked to in the past 2 years said they stopped playing Tekken because of juggling? Why they are the opinion that it ruined the game?
While I also agree that other games such as MK9 have longer combos, some also possess means to break the combos, which Tekken does not. Also (while I'm not sure of the situation with other games) Tekken has evolved from a game with small combos into one with large ones. Perhaps this is the reason it is picked on for its combos? It has perhaps somewhat alienated its loyal followers. There must surely be a just reason why people pick on Tekken for it's combos? Think about it, you are clearly passionate about the game but please try to remain always unbiased and critical.
1) Why do people within the last 2 years say they stopped playing Tekken because of juggling? ============================================= Alright, to prevent my reply from sounding biased, I'll objectively argue based on clear cut discussions already done about the game from oldschool guests that have been playing Tekken for a long time. Let's start by looking at all of the ATP podcast interviews from the beginning: http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/podcasts/ (I'm doing this all out of memory so I apologize if I misquote some people) - Fighting GM, MarkMan, JFJ/Rip, Ryan Hart, Naps, Hoa, Maxi, QDogg, Blood Hawk all still play & loves & support the game) - JOP doesn't play anymore, but Tomhilfiger already called him out in his discussion claiming he's afraid to lose his status if he does compete despite still having a formidable JACK. There's nothing mentioning how he's tired of the juggle system. - Tomhilfiger and LingMassacre both try to play when they can but stopped playing much because of life but neither of them ever complained about the juggles. And Ling Massacre's podcasts are always a joy to behold because he really articulate the depth and artistry Tekken's gameplay evokes. Tom only complains about the "randomness" about Tekken, but I'll save the rebuttal for that later - Ryan Hart (Still plays and loves the game, he mentions that the scene has dwindled, but the reason he gives is because of how the presentation and overall structure of the game hasn't changed as much since DR and the fact that Tekken scene depends on the Arcade scene which in itself is dying. No mention of juggles)
- Slips and Shin's podcast is where they really begin to criticize what Tekken has become. They put up 2 major arguments. Their first, I can agree with: They say that the Tekken characters have all lost their identity. Previously characters like Paul and Jack were power hitters depending on getting their big hits in and characters like Yoshimitsu/Kunimitsu depended on trickery to get their unblockables in. Now in Tekken 6, they depend on juggle damage to win just like every regular character, and hence lose what made them unique. That makes sense, and I agree with somewhat... BUT they're not arguing about the fact that the juggles are too long or too high, they're arguing that the playstyle for every character has been spread and saturated the cast. In T6's defense of this change, Tekken has achieved a balanced game where everyone is playable. Previously, playing as Kunimitsu or Alex is a joke because there's no chance she'll win ever in a serious game. Now looking at Yoshi in T6 who is in the same boat, but at least now has some juggle damage along with his trickery, can provide a fighting chance like how JFJ showed in Final Round. Their second complaint which I don't agree with was that the juggle system was more creative in games like TTT where it was more open ended with what you could do during juggles. They talked aobut how you could end juggles with such and such moves to setup certain followups while in T6 and beyond it was always set in stone what was the best combo each time. I can't disagree with that statement more. THERE IS STILL so much creativity that can be done with the combo's in Tekken 6. You can still do a launcher and play with the plethora of moves you have to invoke a result whether it be max damage, a tech trap, wall carry, you name it. Just to give an example as of how JDCR discovered the Armor King tech trap 3 years into the game's life cycle and even MYK's forward jump into WS+1 tech trap with Lars. And with Tag Assault introduced for TTT2, there's even more incentive to experiment and be creative with what you want to do with your combo/juggle. So again, as far as I know Tekken's juggle system is still bloody genius. - QDogg being one of the MOST oldschool players still travels for the game and supports it
And then just as a final message to those old school people saying Tekken isn't good anymore, I'd say BloodHawk said it best: 1:19:40 http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/storage/atp-episodes/Avoiding%20the%20Puddle%20Episode%20020.mp3 Echo'd by Fighting GM as well here: 23:20 http://www.upstatefighting.com/rss/sounds/ATG_-_Episode_18_-_fightingGM.mp3 ==================================================
2) Why is it that people always pick apart Tekken's juggle system? Has it alienated it's loyal fans? ================================================= Okay there are a couple ofthings I have to say about this: - First of all, it's a good question, why has Tekken's juggle system always been scrutinized when it's combo/juggle damage not all that different from all the other games I listed above? The reason I'm giving is that Tekken by nature is slower than the other games above. To give an example of a 2D game like Street Fighter 3 or CvS2... Ryu's jab is something like 3-4 frames. While in Tekken, a jab is 10 frames with an even longer recovery. So imagining a combo like multiple jabs in Street Fighter wheras imagining multiple jabs in Tekken, it takes almost 4 times longer for that combo to happen in Tekken versus something like Street Fighter. And when you include special moves in there as well, Tekken's combo's just seem so much longer when in reality there pretty much is the same amount of inputs as other games but because of the nature of the game, it can be scrutinized in more detail. But the core things which matter in a fighting game such as execution, mind games, and overall knowledge are all the same.. but IMO superior in Tekken. - And secondly, about how these loyal fans feel alienated. Are they alienated because of the juggle system? Or are they alienated because of Namco's target audience and release schedule for the game? Why is it then that only the European and North American communities are gathering and looking for something to complain about? Why is it that people in Australia, Korea, Japan, Thailand, Indonesia continue to have fun while people around here bitch? The fact of the matter is that we want to play but we can't because Namco can't make its Arcade money off of us. And because we can't play the game until the end of the year, our community finds reasons to hate and shit on the game in the meantime. I can definitely guarantee that if we had the game and were discovering things simultaneously with the Koreans and Japanese, the community outlook would have been completely different. =================================================
Hope that answers your question. In the end, to summarize, Tekken has gotten too advanced for them, and people aren't willing to put in the time and effort to learn and enjoy it. Also, the late release date from Namco, and non-existant online community contribute to that giviing people reasons to hate on Tekken.
"Tekken doesn't have any of that. If you want to output damage, you have to work for it. You need to practice and make sure your execution is on point or you'll drop the combo. Also, there needs to be a reward to the player for landing a launcher or punishing correctly. With the current system for Tekken, the best player will always universally win."
"T6 is like a lottery. In T6, sometimes novice beats master by lucky hopkick and magic 4. I love the fact. In my opinion, fun is come from unexpected and surprise things. Always master beat beginner, why we organizing tournament, just give the prize money to best player. "
Lucky Magic4/Hopkcik = MAximum Damage on Average Approximately 90 hp. Total HP = 145. 3 Rounds in a game = 435. 3 games in a tournament match = 1305 HP
Number of times a Magic4/Hopkick needs to land: 1305/90 = 14.5 times
If someone gets "Lucky" a miinimum of 15 times in a match to kill off their opponent assuming they get the maximum damage from their combo... then I have to question your definition of "Lucky". The dude eating that stuff needs to sort himself out.
why the hell is everyone saying that juggles in tekken are hard to perform??? they're incredibly EASY, and that is why they're boring as fuck to watch.
watching someone land a juggle that requires 2 or 3 just frame inputs is awe-inspiring and entertaining, and sadly these kind of juggles just don't exist in tekken. well maybe they do, but you will never see them because there's no payoff. why would you risk doing a hard just frame based juggle when you can do a juggle that hits for twice as much damage and could be performed by a toddler?
its absolutely fine for juggles to be the hallmark feature of a game, just don't make them mind-numbingly easy to execute. juggles in TTT1 were a lot harder to perform, and that is why people never got tired of that game
Wow AAK. You really took your time to reply, highlighting a lot of things I never even thought about. I wish I had more thumbs I could raise to you. Your example is highly exaggerated though. 90 dmg off a hopkick/magic4 requires a stage with walls, and even then the hp in T6 is 180, 198 in arcade mode.
There's some guessing in Tekken, but there's guessing in every fighting game.
David: At one point you will start doing harder juggles just to dish out that additional 2-3 damage. You won't only feel the reward from the damage, but also from the good feeling of executing something a bit more difficult. Plus, the hardest part isn't always doing the juggle, but initiating it. For example, in Street Fighter you can dish out a full juggle just from hitting a single jab. In Tekken you have to earn it and take huge risks just to get your opponent in the air.
Oh really! Way to overgeneralize, see I can play that game too:
TTT1: Juggle: Launcher --> Standing 4 See what I did there?
Like TTT1, T6 has it's fair share of hard "staple" juggles that are entertaining to watch i.e. Heihachi's EWGF,EWGF,f+3,EWGF,d+1,B! and followups. You're saying people are bored but T6's combo's are still VERY thrilling to watch, couple examples: watching FightingGM b+2 Knee from a wall splat to a second wall splat 90 degrees away during MLG; Seeing killerdoll manage to do high damage iSW combo's on JDCR in their FT5; Watching Blabbermouth wreck a bunch of Korean heavy hitters throughout Korea in Tekken Crash S8 with his custom Kazuya combo's coming from d/f+2, EWGF launchers; Same goes for Ryan Hart.
TTT might have appeared more entertaining simply because the game required you to play like such a freaking turtle that once someone finally did get launched, it was a big occasion.
It's only "mind-numbingly" easy to execute in your eyes because you're just looking at it from a completely damage perspective. You fail to appreciate the way T6's system further allows you to modify your juggle to set up various situation 10x better than TTT1 ever will. Especially considering the monstrous sidestep in that game, it's impossible to get those off axis setups in that game. Also if you ever noticed, 90% of all the combo vids for that game always revolved around damage done to the big characters, simply because their extra weight made it possible for all those attack strings to connect. T6 on the other hand doesn't have that exorbitant weight factor like TTT did.
I'm not trashing TTT1, I love that game and I still play it time to time after the release of Tekken Hybrid. BUT, you have to know, Tekken's evolved. And it's sad to see so many people not wanting to invest the time and effort to get better and understand it, rather than blaming everything on the game itself.
@ Katt
Thanks for the correction, and that helps my argument even more. I said 90 because again I was assuming that each launcher would garner maximum damage. And since the hp is more, that means the players have even more hp to deal with to counter the "randomness" from players.
AAK, it wasn't my quote. It was from Rain in an interview. So it's his definition of lucky you're questioning and not mine. Your logic is so incredibly flawed, and biased, at many places that I wouldn't even know where to begin though. You try to play it off as it's ignorance and stupid westerners that have a wrong conception of the game but it's not. A lot of koreans aren't happy with the games development either and a lot of people who can think further then their sleeve.
Just want to say that a bomb just dropped: http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/feb/08/namco-bandai-announces-new-version-tekken-tag-tournament-2-debut-aou-2012/
I'm one of the people who have complained about t6. But i don't really complain much on the juggle system, it's that movement is harder/slower than it was in t5/dr that bothers me. Otherwise i dont really mind. I just find that the harder movement forces you to eat a lot more mixups than you used to, since it's not as easy to backdash cancel out of moves. And because you can't do that as easily, you need to have very good character knowledge of every opponent. Ofc this was also needed in older versions, I just feel it has become more important than before.
Yet movement can become fast with lots of practice, but even the best koreans movement look like mediocre movent in past versions..
. so I think that if anything, the game has just become more elitist than it was.
I suppose that's why they added rage and whatnot to make it a bit more random..
Anyway none of this has made me stopped playing the game, so i guess it isnt all total crap :)
Reader Comments (36)
Jeez guess i'll not only have time to make a cup of tea like before . but also put something in the oven to eat
wtf has happened to tekken .. so sad
Cool enough! Many great tips for me. My TTT2 team is Lili/ Bruce. Yeah, this game is going to be a combo-fest!
@AC-
What happened to Tekken was the fact that it gave rise to the most creative and free form combo system out of any fighting game in the world. And while doing so, Tekken maintains the integrity of being a deep and intricate competitive tournament worthy game simultaneously. If you want to return to the days of barinless, stagnant, and boring juggles, play Tekken 4.
Been playing TTT2 Prologue for a while, and Tag Assaulting is brilliant. Can't wait for TTT2.
man. I usually hate hearing Tekken but I'll watch anything if it has Hoobastank combos.
Good video. I agree that this game is combos combos combos. Still waiting for the Bryan/Hwoarang combo video, lol.
yeah. TTT2 is for guys who abused their opponents but avoid getting abused!
I mean, TTT2 is hell lot of mind games.
good video... and also nice editing.
Funny AC should say "wtf has happened to tekken"
Really reminds me of that CCC thread on TZ "What happened to Tekken"
AAK - One could argue that such a combo system makes the game much more brain dead, and a hell of a lot more annoying to new players. Way too much set-ups/tricks to learn.
@Skeering
Something braindead would be something like a Sagat v Guile match where they're doing nothing but chucking fireballs and plasmids at each other all day... and then getting a lucky standing roundhouse into ultra.
Tekken doesn't have any of that. If you want to output damage, you have to work for it. You need to practice and make sure your execution is on point or you'll drop the combo. Also, there needs to be a reward to the player for landing a launcher or punishing correctly. With the current system for Tekken, the best player will always universally win.
And the whole argument about the juggle length and damage is EXTREMELY and UNFAIRLY exaggerated towards the Tekken series. Every fighting game is composed of high damage juggles:
Mortal Kombat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08TAGb-mvCI
CvS2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODEuDejhsiw
KOF13:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkWclyTo7Gw
Blazblue: (Mute this)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPR2hX6-z8E
Virtua Fighter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf3H59kPe4g
Let's not even begin to talk about Marvel vs Capcom 3. Tekken has by far the greatest combo system out of any other fighting game with how much versatility and freedom it offers you especially with the extremely diverse movelist for every character. It's a staple in the series that's one of the hallmarks of enjoyment I get from it. But on top of that, Tekken also has the most intricate system for movement and wakeup compared to any other fighting game while maintaining a visceral and appealing presentation which makes it the best fighting series in existence IMO. Learn to love it and cherish it, because Tekken does it better than any other game out there.
About the argument for new players, I definitely say to keep the integrity of Tekken's combo system. The only thing that needs to be changed is the movement. Make it easier to move and sidestep so that newer players can feel like they have a grasp on the basics and they can feel the thrill of whiff punishing a lot better. But again that will compromise the integrity of the system Tekken has developed over the years by turning it into a complete turtle fest with such a strong backdash. But that is IMO the core change that needs to happen to get people hooked into Tekken. The combo system is beautiful and fun the way it already is IMO.
@AAK
What a beautiful and concise explanation!
I couldn't have said it better man
TELL EM KID!
AAK is passionate about Tekken. He gets my respect.
@ AAK
Thanks for the long reply, I appreciate a good discussion.
Can you explain to my why every (past) player I ever talked to in the past 2 years said they stopped playing Tekken because of juggling? Why they are the opinion that it ruined the game?
While I also agree that other games such as MK9 have longer combos, some also possess means to break the combos, which Tekken does not. Also (while I'm not sure of the situation with other games) Tekken has evolved from a game with small combos into one with large ones. Perhaps this is the reason it is picked on for its combos? It has perhaps somewhat alienated its loyal followers. There must surely be a just reason why people pick on Tekken for it's combos? Think about it, you are clearly passionate about the game but please try to remain always unbiased and critical.
@AAK fuck yes my friend.
@ Skeering The reason that Tekken gets singled out for it's combos is simply b/c they are harder and require a lot more skill to perform.
@ Skeering Ok, so you're first concern:
1) Why do people within the last 2 years say they stopped playing Tekken because of juggling?
=============================================
Alright, to prevent my reply from sounding biased, I'll objectively argue based on clear cut discussions already done about the game from oldschool guests that have been playing Tekken for a long time. Let's start by looking at all of the ATP podcast interviews from the beginning:
http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/podcasts/ (I'm doing this all out of memory so I apologize if I misquote some people)
- Fighting GM, MarkMan, JFJ/Rip, Ryan Hart, Naps, Hoa, Maxi, QDogg, Blood Hawk all still play & loves & support the game)
- JOP doesn't play anymore, but Tomhilfiger already called him out in his discussion claiming he's afraid to lose his status if he does compete despite still having a formidable JACK. There's nothing mentioning how he's tired of the juggle system.
- Tomhilfiger and LingMassacre both try to play when they can but stopped playing much because of life but neither of them ever complained about the juggles. And Ling Massacre's podcasts are always a joy to behold because he really articulate the depth and artistry Tekken's gameplay evokes. Tom only complains about the "randomness" about Tekken, but I'll save the rebuttal for that later
- Ryan Hart (Still plays and loves the game, he mentions that the scene has dwindled, but the reason he gives is because of how the presentation and overall structure of the game hasn't changed as much since DR and the fact that Tekken scene depends on the Arcade scene which in itself is dying. No mention of juggles)
- Slips and Shin's podcast is where they really begin to criticize what Tekken has become. They put up 2 major arguments. Their first, I can agree with: They say that the Tekken characters have all lost their identity. Previously characters like Paul and Jack were power hitters depending on getting their big hits in and characters like Yoshimitsu/Kunimitsu depended on trickery to get their unblockables in. Now in Tekken 6, they depend on juggle damage to win just like every regular character, and hence lose what made them unique. That makes sense, and I agree with somewhat... BUT they're not arguing about the fact that the juggles are too long or too high, they're arguing that the playstyle for every character has been spread and saturated the cast. In T6's defense of this change, Tekken has achieved a balanced game where everyone is playable. Previously, playing as Kunimitsu or Alex is a joke because there's no chance she'll win ever in a serious game. Now looking at Yoshi in T6 who is in the same boat, but at least now has some juggle damage along with his trickery, can provide a fighting chance like how JFJ showed in Final Round.
Their second complaint which I don't agree with was that the juggle system was more creative in games like TTT where it was more open ended with what you could do during juggles. They talked aobut how you could end juggles with such and such moves to setup certain followups while in T6 and beyond it was always set in stone what was the best combo each time. I can't disagree with that statement more. THERE IS STILL so much creativity that can be done with the combo's in Tekken 6. You can still do a launcher and play with the plethora of moves you have to invoke a result whether it be max damage, a tech trap, wall carry, you name it. Just to give an example as of how JDCR discovered the Armor King tech trap 3 years into the game's life cycle and even MYK's forward jump into WS+1 tech trap with Lars. And with Tag Assault introduced for TTT2, there's even more incentive to experiment and be creative with what you want to do with your combo/juggle. So again, as far as I know Tekken's juggle system is still bloody genius.
- QDogg being one of the MOST oldschool players still travels for the game and supports it
And then just as a final message to those old school people saying Tekken isn't good anymore, I'd say BloodHawk said it best: 1:19:40
http://www.avoidingthepuddle.com/storage/atp-episodes/Avoiding%20the%20Puddle%20Episode%20020.mp3
Echo'd by Fighting GM as well here: 23:20
http://www.upstatefighting.com/rss/sounds/ATG_-_Episode_18_-_fightingGM.mp3
==================================================
2) Why is it that people always pick apart Tekken's juggle system? Has it alienated it's loyal fans?
=================================================
Okay there are a couple ofthings I have to say about this:
- First of all, it's a good question, why has Tekken's juggle system always been scrutinized when it's combo/juggle damage not all that different from all the other games I listed above? The reason I'm giving is that Tekken by nature is slower than the other games above. To give an example of a 2D game like Street Fighter 3 or CvS2... Ryu's jab is something like 3-4 frames. While in Tekken, a jab is 10 frames with an even longer recovery. So imagining a combo like multiple jabs in Street Fighter wheras imagining multiple jabs in Tekken, it takes almost 4 times longer for that combo to happen in Tekken versus something like Street Fighter. And when you include special moves in there as well, Tekken's combo's just seem so much longer when in reality there pretty much is the same amount of inputs as other games but because of the nature of the game, it can be scrutinized in more detail. But the core things which matter in a fighting game such as execution, mind games, and overall knowledge are all the same.. but IMO superior in Tekken.
- And secondly, about how these loyal fans feel alienated. Are they alienated because of the juggle system? Or are they alienated because of Namco's target audience and release schedule for the game? Why is it then that only the European and North American communities are gathering and looking for something to complain about? Why is it that people in Australia, Korea, Japan, Thailand, Indonesia continue to have fun while people around here bitch? The fact of the matter is that we want to play but we can't because Namco can't make its Arcade money off of us. And because we can't play the game until the end of the year, our community finds reasons to hate and shit on the game in the meantime. I can definitely guarantee that if we had the game and were discovering things simultaneously with the Koreans and Japanese, the community outlook would have been completely different.
=================================================
Hope that answers your question. In the end, to summarize, Tekken has gotten too advanced for them, and people aren't willing to put in the time and effort to learn and enjoy it. Also, the late release date from Namco, and non-existant online community contribute to that giviing people reasons to hate on Tekken.
"Tekken doesn't have any of that. If you want to output damage, you have to work for it. You need to practice and make sure your execution is on point or you'll drop the combo. Also, there needs to be a reward to the player for landing a launcher or punishing correctly. With the current system for Tekken, the best player will always universally win."
"T6 is like a lottery. In T6, sometimes novice beats master by lucky hopkick and magic 4. I love the fact. In my opinion, fun is come from unexpected and surprise things. Always master beat beginner, why we organizing tournament, just give the prize money to best player. "
Rain, the Scrub, says Hi.
Randomness in Tekken101:
Lucky Magic4/Hopkcik = MAximum Damage on Average Approximately 90 hp. Total HP = 145. 3 Rounds in a game = 435. 3 games in a tournament match = 1305 HP
Number of times a Magic4/Hopkick needs to land: 1305/90 = 14.5 times
If someone gets "Lucky" a miinimum of 15 times in a match to kill off their opponent assuming they get the maximum damage from their combo... then I have to question your definition of "Lucky". The dude eating that stuff needs to sort himself out.
why the hell is everyone saying that juggles in tekken are hard to perform??? they're incredibly EASY, and that is why they're boring as fuck to watch.
watching someone land a juggle that requires 2 or 3 just frame inputs is awe-inspiring and entertaining, and sadly these kind of juggles just don't exist in tekken. well maybe they do, but you will never see them because there's no payoff. why would you risk doing a hard just frame based juggle when you can do a juggle that hits for twice as much damage and could be performed by a toddler?
its absolutely fine for juggles to be the hallmark feature of a game, just don't make them mind-numbingly easy to execute. juggles in TTT1 were a lot harder to perform, and that is why people never got tired of that game
Wow AAK. You really took your time to reply, highlighting a lot of things I never even thought about. I wish I had more thumbs I could raise to you. Your example is highly exaggerated though. 90 dmg off a hopkick/magic4 requires a stage with walls, and even then the hp in T6 is 180, 198 in arcade mode.
There's some guessing in Tekken, but there's guessing in every fighting game.
David: At one point you will start doing harder juggles just to dish out that additional 2-3 damage. You won't only feel the reward from the damage, but also from the good feeling of executing something a bit more difficult. Plus, the hardest part isn't always doing the juggle, but initiating it. For example, in Street Fighter you can dish out a full juggle just from hitting a single jab. In Tekken you have to earn it and take huge risks just to get your opponent in the air.
@ David
Oh really! Way to overgeneralize, see I can play that game too:
TTT1: Juggle:
Launcher --> Standing 4
See what I did there?
Like TTT1, T6 has it's fair share of hard "staple" juggles that are entertaining to watch i.e. Heihachi's EWGF,EWGF,f+3,EWGF,d+1,B! and followups. You're saying people are bored but T6's combo's are still VERY thrilling to watch, couple examples: watching FightingGM b+2 Knee from a wall splat to a second wall splat 90 degrees away during MLG; Seeing killerdoll manage to do high damage iSW combo's on JDCR in their FT5; Watching Blabbermouth wreck a bunch of Korean heavy hitters throughout Korea in Tekken Crash S8 with his custom Kazuya combo's coming from d/f+2, EWGF launchers; Same goes for Ryan Hart.
TTT might have appeared more entertaining simply because the game required you to play like such a freaking turtle that once someone finally did get launched, it was a big occasion.
It's only "mind-numbingly" easy to execute in your eyes because you're just looking at it from a completely damage perspective. You fail to appreciate the way T6's system further allows you to modify your juggle to set up various situation 10x better than TTT1 ever will. Especially considering the monstrous sidestep in that game, it's impossible to get those off axis setups in that game. Also if you ever noticed, 90% of all the combo vids for that game always revolved around damage done to the big characters, simply because their extra weight made it possible for all those attack strings to connect. T6 on the other hand doesn't have that exorbitant weight factor like TTT did.
I'm not trashing TTT1, I love that game and I still play it time to time after the release of Tekken Hybrid. BUT, you have to know, Tekken's evolved. And it's sad to see so many people not wanting to invest the time and effort to get better and understand it, rather than blaming everything on the game itself.
@ Katt
Thanks for the correction, and that helps my argument even more. I said 90 because again I was assuming that each launcher would garner maximum damage. And since the hp is more, that means the players have even more hp to deal with to counter the "randomness" from players.
AAK, it wasn't my quote. It was from Rain in an interview. So it's his definition of lucky you're questioning and not mine. Your logic is so incredibly flawed, and biased, at many places that I wouldn't even know where to begin though. You try to play it off as it's ignorance and stupid westerners that have a wrong conception of the game but it's not. A lot of koreans aren't happy with the games development either and a lot of people who can think further then their sleeve.
Just want to say that a bomb just dropped:
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/feb/08/namco-bandai-announces-new-version-tekken-tag-tournament-2-debut-aou-2012/
I'm one of the people who have complained about t6. But i don't really complain much on the juggle system, it's that movement is harder/slower than it was in t5/dr that bothers me. Otherwise i dont really mind. I just find that the harder movement forces you to eat a lot more mixups than you used to, since it's not as easy to backdash cancel out of moves. And because you can't do that as easily, you need to have very good character knowledge of every opponent. Ofc this was also needed in older versions, I just feel it has become more important than before.
Yet movement can become fast with lots of practice, but even the best koreans movement look like mediocre movent in past versions..
. so I think that if anything, the game has just become more elitist than it was.
I suppose that's why they added rage and whatnot to make it a bit more random..
Anyway none of this has made me stopped playing the game, so i guess it isnt all total crap :)