Sunday
Feb052012
TTT2: Bryan/Bruce Combo Video by the Knee
BY 
Aris ON Sunday, February 5, 2012 at 3:41PM
Aris ON Sunday, February 5, 2012 at 3:41PM 
This video has as many crazy combos in it as it does goofy effect. Good shit Knee! Thanks to TK4mania for the upload.
Reader Comments (36)
@ Reality
What does it matter if Rain quoted that or not. If you agree with it, then you should be able to defend it. YES I know, some people can randomly throw a hopkick and win a round. But as I objectively showed you, that's not enough to win a 2 out of 3 set in a tournament setting. And yes it has happened before, for example like when GM lost to the Armor King player at EVO, but every other tournament since, was he ever eliminated in such a way?
And the whole "A lot of koreans aren't happy with the games development either and a lot of people who can think further then their sleeve" argument is week sorry, have you seen the Arcadia rankings for T6 and now TTT2? That game was consistently at the top of the charts month after month except the occasional Gundam game. I'm not the one basing my argument on "Koreans or Tekken Players say ...." I'm calling exact interviews from this website and I'm bringing exact numbers. Numbers don't lie nor have any "bias" that you're so fond of accusing me of.
The only real complaints I've heard from Korea about TTT2 is that it's too similar to BR. Let's look at Tekken's history for a bit. T1 and T2 got things started and were very similar to eachother. Then there was a huge innovation with the SS and backdash cancel giving us T3 and TTT which were very similar. Then we got a completely new direction with T4, a direction not appreciated by everyone. Namco clearly decided to play it safe and radically changed the system again and made T5 and DR which were also very similar. Notice that they took a step back to the TTT system instead of trying out a new direction again.
And then things slowed down, with T6, characters got more unique and they solved the problem of character clones which had long been a problem of the series. They also took a great leap in the graphic department but there wasn't that huge system change that we got between T2 and T3 or between TTT and T4. It was different yes, but it can't really be called a great leap. If you think about it, people have kinda been playing the "same" game since 5.0. And if you still feel that the games are too different you can at least agree that the system has been pretty much the same since 6.0 (a game released late 2007).
I think there's an unusually large gap between the arcade and console scenes atm, because 6.0 was played for a very long time and completely skipped for the console players. At the same time that Koreans were screaming for something new and exciting or atleast just different, console players were just getting a grip on BR. Finally TTT2 came but it's too similar to BR. It's not that it's bad, it's that people wanna move on to something new and fresh.
This is pretty much the only complaint I keep hearing over and over again from the Korean scene.
But as usual the absolute top players feel differently, they seem to really like the game. I asked Nin if he thought the games were too similar and he just started laughing like I had said the silliest thing ever ^^
Regarding Rain's quote, I'm not sure from which interview that is. I helped out with translation for one where he said something very similar, in that case the context was TTT VS BR, pros and cons. His point which makes a lot of sense if you really think about it is that as soon as we're talking about the game's entertainment value and not it's ability to reward the most "deserving" player, we end up with the following conclusion:
A game is more exciting when unexpected things can suddently happen. When you enter a tournament and you're not really sure if you're gonna win or lose, this adds entertainment for you as a player and the spectators. It gives more joy when you win and more grief when you lose. In other words, more drama, and this is a great thing for everyone. Ofcourse there is a balance, if it's completely random then it dosn't really mean anything if you win, and if the winner is completely predetermined and revealed then the drama won't occur.
From a player's point of view he's doing his absolute best to completely crush everyone and offer no drama at all. To win as convincingly as possible, and he reckognices this, but he's thinking one step further. In order for the game to grow (which it allways needs to do) the game has to serve the players as well as the spectators, and sometimes there's a conflict in interest which needs to balance out appropriately. TTT was too favorable for the top players.
That's all he's saying.
@AAK
When I said every (ex) Tekken player I’ve known quit because of Juggling I wasn’t referring to the “Professional” players you discussed... Obviously these players aren’t going to bitch about something as integral as juggling. If you hate that you hate Tekken and obviously these people don’t...
I was referring to the everyday fan of Tekken, people who haven’t invested huge quantities of their time in learning every string/matchup etc. These people have become somewhat frustrated with the way the series has progressed.
And personally I have nothing against Namco for a late release date. Who cares it’ll come, just play SCV or something. He current version if TTT2 is broke anyway.
@David
Your totally right, combos in T6 are really easy. I’ve played SSFIV and they are nearly impossible to pull off. The fact that most of the damage in T6 is gotten off of these easily executed combos into damage/wall mixups means the game is arguably seen as brain-dead.
@Reality
Why do you put so much scope in what Rain says? Maybe the guy is completely wrong? Just cause he’s a great Tekken player doesn’t mean he’s right.
@Tox
Yeah movement in T6 is way too hard. And you HAVE to research online to learn how to do it WTF??? What kind of game makes you do that? It’s like FF XIII, you should wind story/instructions into the game, not make you research shit I mean com’on.
@ Skeering
Do you notice the paradox you just posted? You started by saying that people who haven't invested time in it are frustrated YET people who did spend time with the game really enjoy it and don't have critique. Normal logic says the opinion of someone with the most experience carries the most weight. Just saying.
In the end, the vibe I'm getting is that you and everyone who's "frustrated" with the game now just want to sacrifice the integrity of Tekken's in depth system it's evolved to the level it's at now back to something dumbed down just so that you can feel like you're having more fun?
And again with the argument of Tekken's juggle system being as brain-dead... Here, watch this 3 v 3 match and then come tell me that Tekken's juggles are brain dead and require no effort. Try to understand the way these players customize the juggles depending on the displacement between the wall and them. The thrill of achieving such optimized combo's is something that can ONLY be achieved with the juggle system the way it is right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ca3miB-ZQ&t=1h5m42s
And right now, if ANY of you guys even tried the Tag Assault system in Tekken Hybrid, you'd appreciate the skill needed to properly utilize that new system to it's fullest. Everyone's just watching these Koreans do things like the combo video in the article which are brutally difficult and just hating away.
Lastly, you recommended SCV to hold you until TTT2... there is NO other game that can replace Tekken. There's nothing else like it out there. The release date matters.. A LOT. It's one of the main reasons people refused to give T6 a chance since they felt it's a 2 year old game.
"And again with the argument of Tekken's juggle system being as brain-dead... Here, watch this 3 v 3 match and then come tell me that Tekken's juggles are brain dead and require no effort. Try to understand the way these players customize the juggles depending on the displacement between the wall and them. The thrill of achieving such optimized combo's is something that can ONLY be achieved with the juggle system the way it is right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ca3miB-ZQ&t=1h5m42s"
knowing which juggle to use in a situation is different than having the skill to execute that combo. it definitely takes a bit of practise learning how to alter the combo depending on how far away you are from the wall, but when it comes to actual execution, 99% of juggles in br require basic input.
you mention hei's ewgf, ewgf, f+3, ewgf, d+1 staple and how it's hard to do, but the reality is that it just isn't that difficult. go play TTT1 and try doing his ewgf, ewgf, 1, ewgf and notice the difference (this may not be the best example given that jin could just do LS, which is easier and does more damage, but for most characters in TTT1 the trend was, the harder the juggle the more damage you were rewarded with.
also, people are correct in saying that's its more about initiating the juggle that is exciting and this is exactly my point. people in the audience cheer when someone lands a launcher because essentially what that launcher means is at least 50-60 life, but they barely even bother to watch the rest of the juggle itself, because whatever happens afterwards is pretty much a given.
AAK: That isn't a paradox, it's a general fact.
People who have invests that much time are too far up their own ass now to admit that the game could possibly be in some way flawed.
Your better off listening to new players. They'll tell you if the game is fun/good or not.
"People who have invests that much TIME are too far up their own ass now to admit that the game could possibly be in some way FLAWED."
INVEST TIME != FLAWED
Listen to yourself man, why the heck would anyone spend that much time with something if it's as flawed as you claim???
@ David
So Heihachi's combo isn't easy is it? Please back it up. Show me a video of ANYONE doing it that's not in a practice mode setting who's name isn't Jic3moon Ace or JDCR. I dare you.
Look AAK.... I'm not trying to annoy you or be your enemy here.
The reason people would still invest that much time is obvious. Because they are just too big a fanboy too far up their own ass to see reason. Look I invested two years of my life into Tekken playing more than the average player. I would say that I am comfortable fighting a third of the cast if a good player is using them. So now obviously I've given up hopes of being europes best, so the only way I can now use Tekken for fun is to troll people online and see if me or my friends can get more hate mail. So com'on, what happened to Tekken? It wasn't like that in The "old days"
I don't think many new players will want to play TTT2. And alot of old players will stop. I loved the game more than anything for a while but it just makes me so sad to know how bleak the future is, I guess I'm just frustrated here. And I don't have the energy to try defend a game which alienates so many people and has small potential for fun when compared to other options. Don't get me wrong, at the highest level Tekken is probably the most fun, but I'll probably never get there, so f**k that.
Dude, that's NOT a valid rebuttal. You can't just say that these set of people do it because they're fanboys or crazy or whatever and they're wrong because I disagree with them.
I've been showing you legitimate match videos and quotes this entire time of people playing the game, having fun, and exemplifying the depth Tekken 6's system has. All you've given me is anecdotal information about what random people say.
And WHO says you can't have fun with Tekken 6? I don't even play online and I have more fun with Tekken than ever before. Go to shoryuken.com forums and you're bound to find a group of people that are dedicated to fighting games in your area. Tekken never needed online to flourish and it still doesn't. And what was Tekken like in the old days?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYpesAHP0BQ
This is a clip of the highest level play you'll probably ever see in that game. While it was definitely fun and fast paced, you couldn't even begin to enjoy the wide breadth of things the game had in its arsenal. And I question David again, what is so hard about the combo's in this game which makes Tekken 6 seem so "brainless".
And if you really hate juggles look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPiuSq78Fuc
This game is just a spamfest of pokes which led to nowhere but something almost as unbalanced as MvC3 vanilla. This is what happens when you take away something so fundamental as juggling from Tekken.
And with your argument of new players... If Japan and Korea was capable of bringing in so many new players with Bloodline Rebellion, why can't the same thing happen in America? T6BR had the highest Arcadia rankings out of any Tekken game to date, same thing can be said about Korea. Only thing that I agree would make it easier for new people to come into Tekken is to make the movement slightly easier, but that compromises the integrity of high level play where it will be abused into a turtle-fest.
The main things which would attract new players is a proper tutorial mode, a good online netcode, and a flashy presentation that was well beyond what the competition has. Tekken's flashiness was the undisputed king before SF4 came along and flashed everybody with its pretty focus attack ink brush cancels and artificially hyped ultra's. Stuff like Tag Assault, netsu, and tag throws can definitely bring that into Tekken. I just can't wait until someone does the Hwoarang/Baek command tag combo during a tournament: http://i.minus.com/dbn6dwX8QvA0Uo.gif
You guys need to stop being so pessimistic. There's TONS of things Tekken 6 and TTT2 bring which are fascinating and really enjoyable. Stop living in the past and immerse yourself in what it has to offer.
jesus christ, no one want's the juggle system removed, what the hell are you even talking about? all I'm saying is that juggles in br/ttt2 are too long and too easy. if you disagree and think they are technical and/or difficult, then I am embarrassed for you.
AAK: Man you don't need to show me endless match videos to convince me of anything. The only reason I mention abstract players is because they're the only people I know personally who play Tekken. You don't need to be so high and mighty in your "Ivory tower" hiding behind references to great players. You're already starting to alienate me and all I want is for the good of Tekken!
While it is ALMOST useless complaining about the state of Tekken nowadays, I actually think that that T4 video was really exciting to watch. It was more like a boxing match and less like a ... you know...T6BR match.
Look I'm sorry I got so integral here. I'll finish by saying that I agree with David, aside from Nina iWS1 combos etc... the juggles in T6BR / TTT2 are really, really really easy. And really damaging. I for one would like to see them made more like SSF4 by making them shorter and harder.
You can't deny that these games are too much about long carries to walls into annoying life/death mix ups. The depth of Tekken (which we love so much) is compromised by these safe launchers - to easy wall carry - mixup. There's no depth in situations like this, just frustration and annoyance.
(Sigh) Now posting references is a form of "HIDING" now? What's with the double standards??? You started this debate by telling me to "avoid" my own bias during my explanations so I abide by your rules and continue to argue USING factual videos AND intellectual reasonings provided by a bunch of credible sources. And from there I proceeded to break down the arguments step by step. Sorry brother, I'm not the one "HIDING".
About that T4 video, if you enjoyed that, then you MUST have enjoyed the T6 EVO2011 finals with all those Bob vs Bob matches. Because that is exactly how the flows of the match went. Just like how in that T4 match it was just a bunch of movement broken up between Nina's d/f+1 series or SS+1 series and Paul's 1,2 jabs or d+1 with the occasional phoenix smasher or grab in between. That's pretty much how T6 went EVO finals went with each Bob player just moving back and forth trying to space the d+1's, 2 jabs, d/f+1's, and hell sweeps. People didn't enjoy that at all. Tekken Crash finals on the other hand... were true hype.
And only Nina's iWS+1 juggles are hard? How about Lee's b+2 mist step combo's, how about Baek's Halbeard combo's, Leo's knee, Raven's 4x vampire knees, Hwoarang's LFS->RFS->RFF->LFF transitioning combo's, King's max damage iSW ender combo's, etc. Sure, I KNOW there are easy combo's. But that's your fault for attempting them and not trying to go for the more challenging options. You keep bringing up SF4's way of doing combo's and they are exactly the same thing. Let's take Ibuki for example, you can do a bloody simple combo with her if you want that's pretty brainless: jump fierce-->st.jab,strong,fierce-->neckbreaker. Instead with Ibuki I can do something more challenging like jump short,cr.jab,cr.jab,st.medium--> tsumuji-->EX command dash->st.roundhouse-->command dash-->cr.fierce into mixups. Same thing in Tekken, you play online and all you see is people using the same lame combo's when there's so much more potential in the system that isn't nearly as braindead as you all are insinuating, but instead truly a joy to execute.
And lastly, the whole "depth of tekken is comprised of safe launcher->wall carry->mixup" is a tragic understatement of everything that the game provides Tekken. You referred to me as biased but that generalization is ubiquitously biased against Tekken. There is so much more to it than that! You're ignoring the mind games and spacing needed to first execute a launcher; you ignore the pressure game people develop based on string mixups, guard stuns, and poking; you're ignoring the throw and tackle system, you ignore the defensive options in the game like counters, parries, low parries; you ignore the dynamic nature of the battle that involves orientation stuns, and frame advantage from minor stuns. Also the launcher aspect of Tekken is so much more diverse than in any other fighter. These launchers can come from so many things such as a crumple falls, sweeps, and grabs even. It's not something so simple as lifting the opponent up in the air like in 2D games. Also, I don't understand the complaints about "mixups" after a juggle either? EVERY game has mixups after a combo. You brought out SF4 previously and that game is much more notorious for the mixups after a juggle than in Tekken. How many times have you seen on stream an Akuma or Viper player continuously either do a crossup or a wakeup mixup against a hard knockdowned opponent leading to another juggle which eventually leads to a STUN that results in another juggle? Tekken on the other hand has the DEEPEST wakeup system out of any other fighting game. Here's a partial list:
chinese getup, tech roll, quick backroll, quick getup, low kick, mid kick, forward/backroll, spring kick, sideroll, toe kick, cross chop, etc. The TOOLS are there to avoid the mixups! and it's just your job to use them properly. It's another one of the core fundamentals of Tekken that makes it leagues beyond such a rush to play. So you can't complain that there's no "depth to it and causes frustration". It's just your choice that you don't want to use what the game's given you.
I play 2D fighting games and I occasionally play SF4 with the SRK crew in my city sometimes. And when I do play I end up winning some games here and there against their elite best. Yes it's cool I won and stuff and had a bit of fun, but the sense of accomplishment PALES in comparison to winning a match in Tekken against someone who's better than you. In SF4 I won the mindgame of just outzoning the guy (I'm a Juri player) and using my dive kicks more efficiently, it was pretty simple but that's all it took for that game. In Tekken, I win because I outspaced, I defended better, I broke grabs more, I prioritized my juggles depending on the situation, and I played my wake up game much more smarter than my opponent. In Tekken, I win in so many more frontiers than in a 2D game which makes the experience unparalleled to any other fighting game... and dumbing it down to the extent all of you are demanding will kill that enjoyment the game provides.
Okay fair enough you are using credible videos and evidence to argue your point. But I haven't being playing so long nor do I know as many match videos etc to argue my points. So please excuse me if my arguments seem somewhat ungrounded, I am doing my best here.
That Tekken 4 video is pretty interesting, and would I be correct in saying there are many videos which would go against your point of it being a poke spam fest? There are many T6 videos which are won by pokes alone, and many which are won by launchers alone, I don't think it's fair to show one and say such things as you have. I'm not saying to rid the game of combos, they are really cool and fun, I think T5 was the best balance so far to explain what I mean.
And I never said iWS1 where they only hard combos in Tekken, I said etc after indicating Nina iWS1 (and more...) you know what etc means yes? Baek's aren't so bad, but Lee's and Haowrang's are for sure yeah. And in general I think you have to agree that SSF4 combos are harder. All he players in my area say the game isn't really about juggling, I was relieved to hear this after spending hours in practice mode and not being able to execute Sakura's harder ones. I mean the speed you have to buffer a f,n,d,df motion (in a three frame jab sometimes). Insane
In regards to complaining about the depth of Tekken being compromised.... I have to make one thing clear. I like this game and I am going to still play it a lot, I am just playing devil's advocate here. The mixups post combo I'm talking about only annoy me at the wall. Com'on you ill surely agree Brayn's taunt is extremely unfair. It basically means you can't tech and will eat more damage on the ground, how is this good? I don't argue that it has the deepest wake up system, that is pretty unanimous, but I will argue that isn't necessarily something to be proud of, basically you have to stay grounded and eat another hit so you're thrown away and can get up safely, that's what it comes down to 95% of the time right? Unless you guess a lucky tech roll etc...
Haha and don't get me wrong I HATE SF in general, such a spam fest and really boring. I do however like SC5 a lot and think Tekken could learn a thing or 2 from it.
For example
1: The movement is way better in SC
2: SS SW are way better in SC IMO. If a move is SS then you can always SS it. NOt like Tekken where it's heavily situational.
3: The combos are way less reliable and short, making it more exciting I think. They are a little too limited for my liking though TBH........ I still like T5 juggling the most out of any fighting game.
4: The roster is smaller, and the game is less balanced in terms of universal 10 frame jabs etc, one could argue Tekken was better when Kuma was slow but strong! And Ling was weak but could evade way better! SC hasn't lost this element, and while it makes a game harder to balance it is important to try do it or the game will become very boring I think..
Do you agree?
First thing, Tekken 4 had absolutely garbage damage for juggles so no, the game was easily just a poke fest. As you saw in that match, most characters don't even bother launching their opponent and just go for any regular damaging move.
Second, about SSF4 the hardest combo's to do in street fighter are much easier than the hardest combo's in Tekken 6. Street Fighter 3rd strike however, that one I would say would be comparable. However, the only thing that I would somewhat agree with is that to output the same slight proportion of damage in Tekken during a combo as in Street Fighter, then maybe Tekken's would be easier. But again, when the system allows for such creativity why should the people who choose not to take advantage of it and ouput "braindead" combo's cause the developers to tone it down to such an extent that it limits the possibilities?
In the end, you piled your entire complaint on Bryan's taunt/soccer kick setups. Yes, I know that a tech roll will get you killed and the soccer kick will shut down every other wakeup option possible. BUT, you started this debate from the perspective as a casual non-hardcore player... and doing Bryan's taunt set-ups requires hours and hours of understanding the system and practicing its execution and timing. So I'm honestly not too concerned about that. Once someone does get the tactic down it does seem a little cheap but they worked for it. And Namco already remedied that by making the taunt setup significantly stricter to set up and the f+2,1,4 or 1+2,2 or jet upper follow ups even harder. The second thing they changed, was that the walled stages in TTT2 are all larger than the ones in T6 so the frequency of getting into a wall setup is a lot harder. So aside from Bryan what other setups do you find in Tekken which "doesn't make you proud of its wakeup system"?
And lastly about your list for making Tekken like SC. First of all they're both extremely different games. What works in one shouldn't necessarily work in the other where in SC you can have orbs that cross you up from half the screen and supers that basically shoot projectiles at you from full screen in like 1 frame. So it's not necessarily a smart decision to just paste design decisions in SC into Tekken just because it works in that game. Regardless:
1) Sure improved movement can definitely work. It will probably have newer players feel like they can successfully accomplish a whiff punish easier than it was in BR. BUT you have to understand that the risk with this is that it will return the game to Tekken DR's level of playstyles since it's so easy to move and backdash, the match revolves around people turtling as much as they can destroying the offensive rushdown style of some characters. Magic 4's might have been frustrating to eat in T6BR, but in a game with even better movement, it's going to be 10x more frequent and frustrating then. However, I do agree it's a plausible solution. Again, TTT2 addressed this by improving the sidestep quite a bit and the backdash marginally
2) Again, it's kind of different in tekken where the attacks in those games are divided into horizontal and vertical... therefore it makes sense. In Tekken it's just character limbs the input relates to so it doesn't HAVE to abide by the SC mindset. Tekken is unique because there are certain moves that you can sidestep in one direction but not the other. And those are consistent. There are only a few like Bruce's b+2 that are slightly ambiguous but again, TTT2 remedied that by fixing those moves and making it much more clear cut. I suppose getting rid of the moves that are only avoided SSR or SSL, making everything either linear or homing would make it simpler for people to learn, but then you sacrifice the integrity of the system where it becomes much more 2D orientated where you continuously play on one plane with the occasional sidestep to avoid that linear move. I personally want to keep it that way.
3) I'm kind a confused about this, wouldn't a shorter combo mean it's MORE reliable than a longer combo where there's a greater chance of dropping it? Personally the best balance I can think of, is where the bound system is turned on when your partner is in Netsu. Keep the juggling system the way it is, but instead of having all of your command do more damage per hit, allow the introduction of bound moves which I think would make a lot more people from all parties happy.
4) Making the roster smaller is only going to slightly help people who want to compete at the highest level get there easier by making them learn fewer matchups. Getting rid of characters especially in such an established franchise as Tekken will only anger more people killing it's popularity. Personally, the vast character roster is a staple of the Tekken franchise and adds so much diversity to playing it. Yes, you do have to do more homework, but at the same time playing and experiencing the thrill of the fight among such a broad range of characters only makes the game so much more enjoyable to play. Tekken 4 tried it when succeeding TTT and I can tell you, things bot boring way faster than it should have. But for Tekken 7, I expect them to change the system around so I would probably expect the roster to shrink considerably by then. But for TTT2, the more the merrier.
Why do you think they'll shorten the roster for T7?
And do you agree that over-balancing a game can make it a bit boring? 10 frame jabs etc... Kuma's damage reduced etc....
The other oki options which concern me is picking up for a juggle mid roll back etc. Now I don't personally have great anguish against it, but noob players are again put off by the possibility of more juggles. And I have to admit to a certain that in that particular situation a full juggles does seem kind of silly visually, not technically, just visually. And again it's just something I find frustrates new players again. Again I am just playing devils advocate here.
I understand tekken's depth is important. But I just hope it doesn't go too far. You give me the impression you think T7 will be a bit of a dumb-down? I have to admit I've stopped studying tekken's character roster now because it's just too much to learn to deal and react to every string. Which is annoying cause I have greatly fun matches against kazuya asuka etc... But get killed by bruce feng a lot etc. Sorry Tekken but I have college which is slightly more important to study for. I like the depth, but I wish they'd scrap some of the cast. Lili and bob for example are stupid characters, they look like something from an anime book and move completey ridiculously. At least Kumasi moves like a bear, how can bob shoruken etc? And Lara looks like he belongs in FFX part 2 or something.... A move like uf+3 looks kinda stupid too.
Haha sorry I went on a rant there.... But I think a good one I hope? :)