Tuesday
Jan242012
ATP Review of the Arcade Version of TTT2
BY 
Aris ON Tuesday, January 24, 2012 at 4:58PM
Aris ON Tuesday, January 24, 2012 at 4:58PM 
Now that the location test for TTT2 has come to an end, I thought I would share some of my opinions on the game itself. I, along with the rest of the SoCal Tekken community am very grateful to Namco for giving Super Arcade the opportunity to play this game. I also hope that they eventually decide to release the arcade version in the US. That being said, hopefully you find this video interesting to some degree. Please subscribe to our Youtube channel and thank you for your continued support.
Reader Comments (24)
So your saying ''high risk high reward" > "low risk low reward"?
This game is crap , didnt even need to hear it from aris already knew that . TTT1 / TK3 are the best
Aris with that nipple hair love.
> TK3 are the best
Now remove nostalgia. Woah! These games aren't good at all.
Very good review Aris. I agree with a lot of your points.
I have to agree that Tag 2 is very defensive. I played the game a few times while i was in Japan about a month ago, and i had more time outs playing Tag 2 than in any previous Tekken game. I think that it does add a great sense of tension to the game though. Thankfully, the level of turtling doesn't make the game boring, like SSFIV for example, because the damage is pretty high.. But having said that, sometimes it does seem a little high, so i am a bit split on these issues at the moment....
I also agree that a lot of new players are going to have a hard time getting into the game. Maybe it was just because i was playing the game against Japanese players, but jumping from T6 to Tag 2, sometimes i had no answers to some of the higher level players that i played. It is a huge game, and I there is indeed a lot of new things to explore, so it is justifiable to think that new players could easily be put off the game at first. Personally i think that the leap from BR to Tag 2 is greater than from DR to BR.
But like this review said, from an aesthetic standpoint, the game is incredible, and Namco have done very well in terms of the stages, soundtrack and fan-service.There is a shit tone of potential in how the game will develop overtime, simply due to the scope of the game, so i am looking forward to playing the game again when it reaches consoles.
First of all, this information is pure gold!! Deep and valuable knowledge about the game you cannot find anywhere else!! Great job, Aris!
But, you did a few mistakes in your review. You are basically saying; "just spam hopkicks, and the reward is much higher than the risk because you can tag out and regenerate the health." That is not entirely correct. In TTT2, most hopkicks are -13, not -12 like they were in T6. Mishimas can launch you. Besides, there is a lot of risk involved in tagging in. Your characters is vulnerable when coming in. The opponent still has the upper hand in this situation.
I totally agree with your thoughts about TTT2 being too complex for newer players to enter the game and taking it seriously to higher level. I am a 'new' Tekkenplayer myself. Just started with T6 year and a half ago and I still don't know anything about half the cast at all. I eat, sleep and breath Tekken, but even I can't watch other characters than those few I play with because I cannot appreciate a match if I don't have a deep knowledge about the characters.
I have said for a long time that Tekken is going the same way as Virtua Fighter. A game that is extremely deep, fun and balanced, but nobody plays it because it is too complex to get in to for most people. We all have a life and other hobbies you know! The community where you can play Tekken at a somewhat higher level is getting smaller and smaller. Casual players never care about learning where to duck or sidestep in a string, or what the best punishers are for every situation. Too much effort and too much of a chore. And don't even let me get started about BDC and iws moves etc.
Most casuals playing Tekken are happy learning 2-3 comboes they use in every situation. 1 for wall carry, 1 for open stage and 1 for oki. That is as deep of involvement most people playing videogames want to put in a game. I'm not saying they should dumb down the game, but something needs to be done. People playing Tekken in my country is getting harder and harder to find. I'm not kidding when I say there are only 25-30 people in my whole country still playing Tekken.
Also; nipplehair FTW!!
I will sum up overall complaints from arcade players and operators in Japan and Korea.
Novice players
- TTT2 entry level is too hard for beginners.
(Reason why Tekken 6 BR was so succesful in Asian arcade and brought many new players were the gameplay, which was easy to understand and to play for beginners.)
- Tag Assault is difficult and make strong players only better.
- Good players are now impossible to beat.
Top players opinion from Japan and Korea
+ Skill gap has gone wider(example. red rank players have no chance against pro players unlike in BR)
- Minimal change in gameplay(Top players prefer DR gameplay)
- launch oriented/friendly game and gameplay feels like 6.0
- Mindgame almost non existent and Okizeme gone because of Tag Crash
- Not many newcomers and gameplay is hard for beginners
Operators
- Matches take very long(match time doubled from BR) + bad income
- Boycott affected TTT2 popularity and cabinet price is high(for Korea)
Those impressions from Aris and Seo Joon sound really bad. I wanted a game more about pokes, throws and mind games with less emphasis on juggles. This sounds like it's doing the opposite.
There is Namco's version of Tekken x SF which will hopefully do something really different but will that game come out in the arcade first?
I agree very much with all your views, Aris. Fuck you, but good video.
I really hope the whole Tekken x SF / SF x Tekken thing will work out well for Tekken. Maybe itll get some people interested in the franchise because they find their new favorite fighter who then happens to be from Tekken for example.
That + the fact that TT2 looks alot fancier than older Tekkens might be the first step for a bigger future playerbase.
But to not loose those players right away, Tekken HAS TO BE EASIER. Im playing this game for 2 years and I still feel like a total scrub, what the fuck? If Id play any other game there is on this planet for 2 years straight, Id be on a competetive level, no doubt about it. In Tekken youre still nothing. And yes, that is frustrating. You invest a shitload of time and as a reward you dont even get better, at least thats what it feels like.
Its a huge thing. And it doesnt need to get "a little" easier, they have to go wow style on Tekken, else itll always stay unplayable for newer players.
The worst thing is that you cant practice while playing, you actually gotta study this game.
Many competetive titles let you improve while playing without having to look into forums for hours before each session.
A friend recently switched to Alisa, and now Ive to learn ALL of her move to be able to compete, else he will just destroy me with retardedly cheap moves. That means hours of practice mode time, checking out whats duckable, stepable, punishable. Retarded.
I used to play the UT series competetively. Arguably way harder than all the new gen games, still cake compared to Tekken. But practicing it was fun because youd be playing it, not grinding it in practice mode.
Everything needs to be easier.
Movement: You basically use a "bug" to make your backdashes safe and speed back and forth like my neighbours cat on crack. Idk if it was intended to be that way, I started playing with T5, but its a retarded mechanic. Yes I know, the oldsql players love the skill it brings to the table, but for anyone new its just counter-intuitive. Why would I have to cancel a build in movement method to be faster? Why doesnt it do that on normal dash, the way its supposed to be?
Taken aside the fact that it looks retarded. If you want spectators, you need fluent movement that doesnt look like the game broke or something. For someone who just picked up the game bdc literally looks like youre abusing a bug.
Also the game mechanics need to be more concise. A high should be a high, a mid should be a mid, and so on. Just like hitboxes. When I started 2 years ago that was the thing that was pissing me off the most, by far.
Getting hit by stuff that is visually not actually hitting you and seeing your foot be stuck IN the opponent without it hitting him was infuriating. Now I know the mechanics and know why that happens, for a newer player its a huge turnoff though.
One more important thing would be balancing. I mean for higher level play the game is one of the best when it comes to balancing. For beginners its complete rubbish. Go watch low/mid-level plays. All youll see is a spammfest of unsafe moves that have a huge impact. This is why clueless people say Tekken isnt deep and a masher. Because for anyone below competetive level, thats the case. After a year of practicing and learning everything around the mechanics, friends would still occassionally beat me by spamming 2-3 retardedly broken moves (for our respective level) without any thought put behind it. That was very irritating for me as I felt like as the one with the actual Tekken knowledge and practice that shouldnt happen. But if youre not really on-point even a scrub can hit you with a kdn-low + oki for 50% and theres simply nothing you can do about it at that point.
Reminds me of those online matches you guys played for level up your game. One episode had this steve in it. God this guy was awful. God did he give you trouble by spamming one simple low move. There is you sitting with 3+ years of Tekken experience and this scrub rolls you up with one simple move.
Id be awesome if they had an actual tutorial, not just a practice mode. Several stages that explain all the basic mechanics, frames, punishing, low/mid/high, crush-system, bound-system, walls, floor-breaks, sidestepping/walking, moving and so on. I mean its an obvious thing such a hard game should have, but somehow doesnt.
I love everything in Tekken Tag 2, even bad )
Whatever... I still love tekken and will surely play TTT2.
Gosh fuck Aris you need to get rid of this captcha nonsense.. took me over 30mins just to leave a comment
Aris,
(long post so I'm breaking it up into groups)
On the subject of High Damage Combos / etc :
To be honest, Tag2 would be completely fine with high-damage combos if NAMCO actually designed the game to where launchers were simply a tool for making perfect reads on your opponent. There have been many successful fighting games with high damage combos, and I don't think that's what is necessarily hurting Tag2.... Many people enjoy playing games with high damage and long combos. It all depends on how you structure the neutral game.
Like, as an Arcana Heart 3 player, I know how stupid damage can get in that game..... However, the structure of the game prevents those situations from happening often. Simply dashing in for a mixup that leads into 60% damage combo, could just as easily leave you dead in less 10 seconds. Because of this, the game strongly revolves around movement, projectiles, air control and positioning..... despite players having the opportunity to deal crazy damage at any given time.
So to connect that to my main point.... Say if (for example) NAMCO decided to make all launchers -16 on block.. By simply making that change, it will force smarter (and less) usage of launchers. The structure of the game would then lean toward pokes, spacing and movement (more so than it already is in Tag2). in the end, the game not only would appeal to the 'old-school Tekken players' you mentioned, but it would also please the fans who liked Tekken 6 with the long/high damage combos and wall carry.
TL;DR : I think the high damage, wall carry, bound combos, etc, were great ideas that actually added something new to the Tekken series. That is not what drove old school players away, nor is it the reason that other FG players don't play Tekken. It was simply because NAMCO didn't structure these mechanics in a way that these players would like it.
On the subject of Difficulty / Not enough New players / And whatever else :
I completely agree with you. While I enjoy having a long move list, it becomes extremely overwhelming for players who are completely new to Tekken. And I feel that a game with 40+ characters and hundreds of attacks to memorize isn't helping this. Actually, to be honest, I think NAMCO might want to start taking some attack strings 'out' of Tekken.... especially the gimmick / useless ones such as 10-strings.
Another thing (that isn't really related to difficulty) that I think needs to happen in the Tekken series, is a change of pace. Tekken hasn't been quite as fast ever since the days of DR......and I think speed was a very valuable aspect to Tekken's appeal that was lost. Fighting game players like speed. Guilty Gear was fast, Soul Calibur 2 was fast, Marvel 2 was fast. Could you imagine these games if they were slowed down (....well actually that did happen in SC4...)? I could guarantee more people would hate it more than anything else. And I think that's what Tekken needs again....speed.
But yeah.... I'm done I guess. I just really wanted to get this out because I feel that Tekken really is in trouble (in terms of getting new blood). Maybe if NAMCO reads this, or if other people agree on the basic idea, the future of Tekken can be changed. I really like the series, but even after playing Tag2 at NEC, I still feel like my passion for Tekken is left with Dark Resurrection.
TTT2 is a game for the tekken fans.
i can't believe you're ragging on the difficulty of the game when the rest of the world is clearly trying to adopt the "dumb it down" method in hopes to catch the casual market. i for one commend them for making more of a purist fighting game. i like being challenged. i like the feeling of accomplishment that comes with hitting hard combos in game.
theres a reason why 3rd strike IS the greatest fighting game of all time... and its not because they dumbed it down.
if it helps any at all.. since TTT2 is OUR game, i predict Tekken X Street Fighter to be a game made to reach out to more people. i'm expecting more flashy shit with possible gauge moves. i am excited!
^
On the high damage/launcher subject. I personally think that no launcher should ever crush anything. Its way too easy to force 50/50s for half-bar. The problem really isnt if youre doing 60 or 45% of a bar (not considering bugged Hworang here), the problem is how easy it is. I dont even think it matters how punishable those launchers are, you cant punish them if they just launched you. Making them launch-punishable on hit doesnt remove the 50/50 situation.
-Sidestepping/whiff-punishing/punishing is what requires skill and should reward you with a launch.
-"Random" hopkicks or even high-crushes dont require any skill and therefor shouldnt launch.
-Crush moves should work like Dragunovs. Mini-combos or KND on crush moves, but no launch.
-Evasive moves should only ever launch on CH like for example Lars db1+2. Snakeedges (Bryan, Lili) shouldnt launch on regular hit.
-Generally I think only really slow, seeable lows should KND on regular hit.
^This makes the game less random, rewards skill and at the same time doesnt punish beginners as hard. Opinions?
@joebo:
You can make games easier without dumbing them down. This is not about removing the depth and skill from the game, its about making the entry to the game easier.
The thing is, we really NEED the casual market. Like it or not. Aris made a good point when he said that he doesnt want to play the same people over and over again and I feel the same.
A competetive game is nothing without competition.
Oh man, somebody give Biorr a medal or something!!!
I agree 100% in everything you wrote in those two posts.
I main Lili but I still want the sweep only to launch at CH, because it doesn't make any sense in doing a move and getting 75+ damage without any skill involved.
If spacing and movement is supposed to be the main thing to do and getting pokes in and stuff, they need to make BDC alot easier. I have tried to learn BDC for over a year and still I cannot do it regularly on a stick, nor can I implement whiffpunishing accordingly. I just don't have the fingerdexterity needed to pull off that move. I have read and seen avery frikin' video on youtube on that subject. What is that all about?? I invest year and a half in a game and still am not able to pull of the things required to be at higher level??
Namco needs to make movement a bigger part of the play, and they need to make is somewhat easier. Namco need to reduce the opportunity to get launches so often, especially by hopkicks. They are too random and overpowered. To much reward and almost no frikin risk.
I'm glad more people have the same thoughts as I. This game is being to elitistic and only 50 people in the whole world are able to play it like it should be. 30 of them live in Korea and Japan and those are the same people we see over and over again in Tekken Crash, GodsGarden. Cross counter etc etc. 10 live in USA, 10 in Europe and 10 in the rest of the Asia.
Rest of the people are nowhere near implementing BDC, learning string and knowing where to sidestep or flashduck or whatever that is needed. The game is too comples with 43+ characters and 150+ moves each.
I agree with your views. As someone who is interested in Tekken I find it very difficult to get around the learning curve, especially with the ridiculous juggles. Knowing that TTT2 plays similar to Tekken 6 turns me off extremely to the franchise because I know the people who were good at T6 will be great at TTT2. There has to be a point where things change and newcomers can learn the game along with the pros. Kind of like what SC is doing.
shouldnt two rounds be the international standard? back in tag1 days it used to be 2 rounds