Harada on Revealing Frame Data in Tekken Games

On twitter, Kurokuro asked Harada about displaying official frame data into the Tekken games since it would make his job of creating some match videos with frame data much more easier (Knee Kumite). Harada responds with a lengthy tweet that goes into the decision of not displaying the frame data and the implications of him revealing it. It's quite an interesting read but it's all in Japanese so I took the liberty of translating the whole tweet for us English readers.

Source ▶ http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s09eql

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• It is of course possible to display the frame data within the game but I wouldn't do it. Including the entire frame data (the time and range of an attack's data) into the game, there are things to consider when you give the player access to this data.

• If players could easily have access to such data within the game, it will allow players to uncover and find out the intricacies and details about characters and their moveset much faster which can lead to an impact on the game's lifespan. (The game's 'discovery' period will be shortened as the answers are easily available in game for instance)

• This also has an effect on the players who like to strategize and discuss the game's characters and balance since all their arguments will no longer be arguments since there will be the ultimate authority: a - 'word of god' in the game. (This is but a side-effect however.)

• Harada brings up a small example 'scene' that he always see within the players from time to time. The example is that a skilled player and another player but isn't that skilled with the games are talking about a certain move and it's frame data (How bad is that move on block? For instance) within the game. They both give out what they think is the right frame data about a move but in most cases their answers will be different since there are players that base their information from different places. They could get the data from say their own study inside practice mode or from what they hear from other players as well as looking up the data on an internet website or strategy guide.

• Harada cites a common phrase 'demo frame jan?' (it's a phrase that means 'but frame is X?' but in English we would normally say 'but isn't that move X frames?') that people like to use in discussing how bad a move is. However this is only a single piece of information within a move and doesn't account for other factors within the game like it's range or how long it takes for the move to come out. (will your jabs actually reach the -10 move you blocked?)

• For example, in Soul Calibur the game's hand-to-hand weapon based combat system means the range on moves is typically long. You'll have to factor in move's frame data as well as the range of your character's moves if you want to punish certain attacks making punishment hard in such a game.  Especially within matches since the player must factor in the information and calculate if he can punish a certain move in a fast paced instant. Therefore players tend to develop a 'sense' within playing the game in regards to dealing with moves.

• Additionally in certain cases, some moves may have the same start-up frames but differ with their animation causing players to have trouble telling how bad a move may be on block. This instance in which a player may not know the data behind certain moves can form alternate strategies behind different players. So if a player doesn't realize he can punish a move because it is -14, he might opt to say run in and throw the opponent. The case in which he does not know the data forms a different outcome inside matches which is due to what an opponent knows and doesn't know. The different level of game knowledge between players is an important factor in fighting games.

• If the frame data was displayed and freely available, every single player would easily have the 'answers' to moves and situations an opponent can throw at you basically.

• Another example, if you were to look at Tekken 6 or TTT2 Heihachi's and only look at his frame data you may find out that he may not actually be a good character due to how bad his frame data may appear to be. (Given if you knew the frame data) However when playing against Heihachi inside a match, certain players may say that he has good moves since they feel that might not be able to punish an attack after blocking them since they see a bit of a 'heavy' guard after blocking it (this type of player feedback is considered quantitive data). As a matter of fact, Harada mentions that in T6 that they partially experimented with Heihachi's movelist to see the kind of impression his attacks would give to players.

• Certain impressions like 'that move is scary after blocking it,' or 'that move is really punishable' that players tend to 'feel' in matches are important in the thinking process as players calculate and strategize with what they can get within the matches against an opponent.

• Since the moves in the Tekken games tend to have differing data on start-up and on block, one of the more interesting elements in the games tend to be seeing how different opponents deal with the same situation in matches.

• But seeing as that learning the frame data behind moves is an activity for the dedicated, hardcore players of fighting games, they will mostly already know most of the frame data and answers to situations so this isn't really an issue.

• With that, if players knew the frame data along with the other factors that surround it behind moves, it may form players unconsciously playing in a 'flowchart' manner in matches. but if you don't know the frames and particulars behind certain moves, then seeing players discover new and different things and forming tactics and then using that new discovery inside matches and seeing if they succeed or fail is part of the fun of the Tekken games.

• But in any case it seems to be that when the matches in fighting games get intense, players will often do certain moves without thinking about how bad it is or considering it's frame data.

• When it comes to arguing the balance of the Tekken games, I don't consider players saying certain moves are bad only because of the frame data's numerical value. Because as I mentioned earlier, there a lot more factors in moves to consider like the animation, range, reach, if your opponent is sharp enough to block it etc.

• If it does come to that case in which players judged a move only by it's frame date, I normally say 'You've judged in a position in which a human will pile in all that frame data, now judge them on whether or not they can act with it.' Players must evaluate a move on paper and in game being played by humans basically before considering balance changes.

• So we concluded that we can't prove and make arguments for balance changes to the Tekken games solely on frame data that players may complain about. I consider whether or not these players understand the underlying context in which the moves are in to be important. (It's not the move's fault, it's your use of it.) **FW: He didn't exactly say that but he pretty much meant that**

• So it's for that reason that we don't display frame data in replay match recordings. If we did, I think that once you see all that data you will all be suprised as all the internet character ranking lists (tier lists) will be different from what they are now.

• So that would be the conclusion right? Things would be different if we revealed the frame data. It would be a lot less interesting and reduce the fun since it will become the official Tekken bible among communities.

• However the frame data in what oneself may feel about it, there are some good thoughts processes that you might run into like having a move with good frames (numerically) but you later find out that you hate throwing it out since it might have poor reach and sticks your character out into a scary postion (whiff) for example.

• To reassert myself, I feel like I do not want a mode where you can see entire frame data in the game. (especially in a game like Tekken.)

Comments

[Raurik]

Not giving away the frame data is frustrating for advanced players, but the real problem I've had with Tekken is that it does nothing to teach new players. The burden of explaining and re-explaining what a punish is, what it means when a move is positive, crushes, movement, etc, sits firmly on the shoulders of a handful of people that actually know the game. People that newcomers to the series probably won't know of or know how to find.

Though I don't agree with everything he said, Wakeup above me made some great points that really resonate with my own feelings towards Tekken.

"Holy shit...This guy doesn't recognize how painful it is to blindly suffer through the hundreds of moves in the games.
There are TOO MANY CHARACTERS, MOVES,CRUSH SYSTEM AND OTHER BULLSHIT in your games HARADA.This logic isn't VIABLE with your current games." - Wakeup

In my opinion, Tekken just keeps adding characters and mechanics, but never offers a study hall of any kind for players who aren't already inundated with the series. Maybe Harada still sees Tekken as an arcade game first. You go to the arcade and there are a bunch of skilled players that can teach you the ropes, but that's just not the case in some places. For instance, I'm 3.5 hours away from the nearest Tekken cab and it's only Tekken 5. And I'm the only person I've ever seen play it! One could make the argument that online play can substitute a local scene, but I'd argue they'd never experienced the volatile XBL or PSN community of Tekken...

At some point Harada will have to offer real tutorials. (not whatever that crap was in TTT2)

[Starman]

That's exactly it. We all know frame data exists, and we all have access to it. Its not about that. Its the fact that tekken is screwing its future, by not having a proper training mode that helps invite new players, what is the future for fighting games? Fighters are already a niche genre. The developers need to be helping new players, which will help sales at the end of the day. Otherwise reviews will continue to lambast tekken for being difficult, ala IGN's review, and new players will go play COD. Not many people want to research a game. That is hard work. The game should provide us the tools to get better. wether we want to or not, should be our choice. The best training in a fighting game that I played, to this day, was VF4evo. That was in 2002. Can we not get the same pristine effort from devs anymore? With Tag 2, 60 characters, a complex/convoluted tag system, and an amazing netcode, the lack of a proper training mode is understandable. But unfortunate. A lack of resources is an understandable excuse. But a philosophical ignorance is not.

[Starman]

Sorry for the double post, but the real reason why I feel Harada won't release frame data is, that he's afraid that the console game will cannabalize the arcade market. Frame data would make arcade ports a less viable business, consumers would spend less, and practise more at home.

[divty]

for Harada giving frame data is like america giving the right to Iran to have the nuclear bombe or some shit lol. but more

specifically it is like he doesn't want us to be independent to always rely on other people this is unfortunate to be thinking like

that. people are not dumb they grow.

[Star Saber]

I think most guys here are getting it wrong. Harada has stated his reasons to hide the frame data from most players and I think these are fair enough. However having to learn the frame data over 200 moves being a painful long process is not due to Harada's decision of not revealing the data, it's more due to Harada putting said 200 moves onto a character's moveset for everyone to deal with. So what's wrong about it is not Harada hiding the data, it's actually Harada loading the game with insane amounts of characters in the roster and moves per character. This constant increase of characters and moves is the bullshit that needs to be stopped - not the hiding or revealing data.

[Watafag]

What a load of bullshit. Fucking Harada faggot, I don't even like him anymore.
First of all, frame data could be obtained from other sources anyways, what's the point in not showing it? Does he mean moment when game is just released, first day? How long it takes to test and make frame data lists? One week? Month?
Second, when frame data is learned, that's when real fight begins. When it's pure mindgames, skill, punishment and execution, this is fucking Tekken. What the fuck he talks about?
I can't say for everyone, but me personally - I dropped the game because you can't learn Tekken from just playing. You should learn from other sources and sites and spend shitload of time in practice mode. I may be lazy, but seriously, it takes too much time and effort to learn frame data for such long movelists and lenghty roster, test it in practice, practice to execute it and so on. I want to have fun AND learn the game at the same time. Showing frame data in-game would be greatest solution.
Look at Dota 2. Game has a lot of characters. Characters has a lot of attributes and skills. Skills has different range/numbers/animation. All of that could be learned from playing normal matches. Very rarely you have to test it in practice or look up to some guides. Why can't Tekken have it?
Fuck Harada. I love Tekken, but his views made me quit playing it.

[harada is right]

Comparing to RPG's: not knowing about stats of items, I tried to get different ones. Discovering the stats, I focused my efforts to get the best and... the game ended soon. It was just boring to play, nothing was to discover.
It's an arcade fighting game; casual players even don't care about Frame Data.

[Star Saber]

Dota 2 also has to be learned by looking at hero build guides and such. Bad example to compare or contrast with Tekken.

[Watafag]

Star Saber, you don't have to look for guides or builds, you can understand everything by using logic and game knowledge.
Harada is right, what are you even trying to say? I hope you're not talking to me, because you seems stupid.