About Tekken's combo system as it relates to general and competitive players:
In the games I have taken seriously--Tekken 5, Tekken 5dr, Tekken 6, Tekken 6br, you have had combos and juggles that can easily deplete 50% of your health bar, yes. So far, this combo system is the reason that the game is so lastingly exciting to competitive players; but also so quickly frustrating for general audiences. The system is both so exciting and frustrating because in order to land one of these combos or juggles, two things are usually required: 1) one player making a mistake or being tricked into a bad decision; 2) the other player capitalizing on mistakes, or creating the tricks that lead to bad decisions. The problem many people, seemingly Americans, are hung up on is the fact that taking advantage of mistakes or bad decisions by your opponent is much easier than not making mistakes or bad decisions yourself, leading general audiences to view the game as a combo-fest where as competitive audiences view combos as integral to winning the game, but not the reason it's so exciting. That said, it looks like Tekken Tag 2 seems to be addressing this problem in three possible ways so far: 1) double the life bar (two characters); 2) life regain to tagged-out characters. longer, 3) more difficult combos that might be easier to drop.
Generally, the player that capitalizes on another's mistake is rewarded with fat damage, yes, and this is exciting for the competitive players who work hard not to make mistakes or bad decisions (which is actually possible with Tekken, unlike many other fighting games that are more 'random'). Tekken's popularity problem in America is that it is an intricate game that rewards players for their hard work in not making mistakes or bad decisions (see Tekken 6br's rage system, which even further pressures players to perform flawlessly), but it is being sold to a population that is increasingly demanded less work for more of a reward (see online shopping, twitter, fast food etc).
General audiences focus on the negative side of the imbalance of Tekken's combo system where as competitive players focus on the positive side. Generally, it is very difficult not to make 'launch punishable' mistakes or bad decisions, and generally very easy to punish such mistakes with juggles that will deplete like 50% of your health bar-- or rather, offense is much easier than defense. For competitive players, defense comes first-- for general audiences, offense first. This imbalance leads general audiences to dislike the combo system because the game often becomes a race to see who can juggle who, giving the game a shallow feel. Competitive players know that with every offensive attempt comes risk: slower, risky moves that should be jab-interrupted give the attacker plus frames when blocked to punish the defender for not capitalizing on the attacker's risk; the oh-so-infamous hop kick, when interrupted by a defender's jab rewards the defender for capitalizing on the attacker's risk. Because of this dynamic, competitive players are very cautious (see Knee, for example, a consistent tournament winner since Tekken 5), but this gives the game a level of excitement otherwise not present in other games, as you're always trying to get your opponent to make a mistake that you can capitalize on-- it becomes a game of psychologically engineering 'launch punishable', bad decisions in your opponents rather than simply waiting for them to make mistakes.
So anyway, it seems like Tekken Tag 2 is trying to make the offense/defense imbalance caused by combo system less of a problem for general audiences in three ways. 1) Splitting up the life bar among two characters almost effectively doubles it, but the damage seems to have been kept the same, freeing up general audiences to make more mistakes before losing making it feel like less of a "two or three combos--dead, sort of game". 2) Tagged out characters regain their health over time, rewarding good defense in a way unlike any of the Tekken games I listed as playing. This element will give even general audiences an incentive to defend well rather than throwing out risky hop kicks all session. 3) Longer combos split up among two characters and walls and other stage elements will likely be more difficult to pull off consistently, creating more dropped combos even among competitive players, as well as general audiences.
In total, it looks like Tekken Tag 2 aims to allow defending players to make more mistakes before losing; at the same time, Tekken Tag 2 looks like it will demand attacking players to make fewer mistakes before winning. In this way, general audiences will be able to more thoroughly enjoy the game, even when competing against better players; for competitive players, this might make the game a bit more fun, as you'll feel more inclined to showboat a bit should you have the health, giving matches more variance in terms of play and characters. Or, at top competitive levels, in the least the game will remain the same awesome game it's been, but have much more of a mental, psychological dynamic to it with all the tagging and such.
Lots of text, yes, but that's what these kinds of things are for. If any of what I said is completely wrong, please nail me on them.
Slightly displeased to see that there has been very little change in Tag Assault since AUO show; it looks like it is now slightly faster or it could just be my imagination..
The tag assault looks like you've got much less time to input your commands this time around-- to the point where I think I'd be cool with it. Though, I do hope that each character has some sort of unique animation, and that the blue charge color is removed. YES, I understand that the game is in development.
Jun looks phenomenal so far. I'm really impressed with what I'm seeing lately. Seems they're keeping her T2 moves with some huge twists thrown in. I was pretty skeptical about her even being in TT2 at first but I'm Diggin this shit. A+
the problem is t5.0 is that there was not even supposed to be a t5.0. t5.1 came out to remedy t5.0, but for whatever reason, it was never released to console.
~~
but that is old news anyway. in today's games, they've implimented online patching for arcades ... tekken6 arcade continued to get patched even after the international version came out, which is essentially the same as the console version. I don't know if you've noticed, but if you watch some of the japanese vids, you can small changes like hitspark color changes that never made it to console, etc.
Honestly, judging by the recent turnouts for so many big tournies like KiT, WCWZ, among others... Tekken 6 scene is definitely dying and in its last legs. ATL crew I assume is the exception judging by the strong participation @ FR.
Other thing to consider is that the pole was posted in a 2D dominant forum and Tekken 6 is the only 3D game & oldest game out of the pack. It's a miracle it even got some votes.
Tekken is dying pretty much everywhere except for asia. Can't say what could you do, the oh so important casual market just isn't interested in a game that is generally held as a button mashing juggle fest, as stated. Bad online doesn't help either. Tag 2 could revitalize Tekken a bit, I mean look at all these idiots creaming for Jun. It'll probably also draw in the old TTT players... for a while, until they realize it's just not the same game. Tekken should've just stayed on DR, that's the Tekken I've seen that had the most players and interest, definetly was better than 6.
Reader Comments (34)
About Tekken's combo system as it relates to general and competitive players:
In the games I have taken seriously--Tekken 5, Tekken 5dr, Tekken 6, Tekken 6br, you have had combos and juggles that can easily deplete 50% of your health bar, yes. So far, this combo system is the reason that the game is so lastingly exciting to competitive players; but also so quickly frustrating for general audiences. The system is both so exciting and frustrating because in order to land one of these combos or juggles, two things are usually required: 1) one player making a mistake or being tricked into a bad decision; 2) the other player capitalizing on mistakes, or creating the tricks that lead to bad decisions. The problem many people, seemingly Americans, are hung up on is the fact that taking advantage of mistakes or bad decisions by your opponent is much easier than not making mistakes or bad decisions yourself, leading general audiences to view the game as a combo-fest where as competitive audiences view combos as integral to winning the game, but not the reason it's so exciting. That said, it looks like Tekken Tag 2 seems to be addressing this problem in three possible ways so far: 1) double the life bar (two characters); 2) life regain to tagged-out characters. longer, 3) more difficult combos that might be easier to drop.
Generally, the player that capitalizes on another's mistake is rewarded with fat damage, yes, and this is exciting for the competitive players who work hard not to make mistakes or bad decisions (which is actually possible with Tekken, unlike many other fighting games that are more 'random'). Tekken's popularity problem in America is that it is an intricate game that rewards players for their hard work in not making mistakes or bad decisions (see Tekken 6br's rage system, which even further pressures players to perform flawlessly), but it is being sold to a population that is increasingly demanded less work for more of a reward (see online shopping, twitter, fast food etc).
General audiences focus on the negative side of the imbalance of Tekken's combo system where as competitive players focus on the positive side. Generally, it is very difficult not to make 'launch punishable' mistakes or bad decisions, and generally very easy to punish such mistakes with juggles that will deplete like 50% of your health bar-- or rather, offense is much easier than defense. For competitive players, defense comes first-- for general audiences, offense first. This imbalance leads general audiences to dislike the combo system because the game often becomes a race to see who can juggle who, giving the game a shallow feel. Competitive players know that with every offensive attempt comes risk: slower, risky moves that should be jab-interrupted give the attacker plus frames when blocked to punish the defender for not capitalizing on the attacker's risk; the oh-so-infamous hop kick, when interrupted by a defender's jab rewards the defender for capitalizing on the attacker's risk. Because of this dynamic, competitive players are very cautious (see Knee, for example, a consistent tournament winner since Tekken 5), but this gives the game a level of excitement otherwise not present in other games, as you're always trying to get your opponent to make a mistake that you can capitalize on-- it becomes a game of psychologically engineering 'launch punishable', bad decisions in your opponents rather than simply waiting for them to make mistakes.
So anyway, it seems like Tekken Tag 2 is trying to make the offense/defense imbalance caused by combo system less of a problem for general audiences in three ways. 1) Splitting up the life bar among two characters almost effectively doubles it, but the damage seems to have been kept the same, freeing up general audiences to make more mistakes before losing making it feel like less of a "two or three combos--dead, sort of game". 2) Tagged out characters regain their health over time, rewarding good defense in a way unlike any of the Tekken games I listed as playing. This element will give even general audiences an incentive to defend well rather than throwing out risky hop kicks all session. 3) Longer combos split up among two characters and walls and other stage elements will likely be more difficult to pull off consistently, creating more dropped combos even among competitive players, as well as general audiences.
In total, it looks like Tekken Tag 2 aims to allow defending players to make more mistakes before losing; at the same time, Tekken Tag 2 looks like it will demand attacking players to make fewer mistakes before winning. In this way, general audiences will be able to more thoroughly enjoy the game, even when competing against better players; for competitive players, this might make the game a bit more fun, as you'll feel more inclined to showboat a bit should you have the health, giving matches more variance in terms of play and characters. Or, at top competitive levels, in the least the game will remain the same awesome game it's been, but have much more of a mental, psychological dynamic to it with all the tagging and such.
Lots of text, yes, but that's what these kinds of things are for. If any of what I said is completely wrong, please nail me on them.
Slightly displeased to see that there has been very little change in Tag Assault since AUO show; it looks like it is now slightly faster or it could just be my imagination..
I'm a 10000000000000000000000 times more hopeful for it, now that I've seen the Ki charge/slowdown aspect of it tweaked.
The tag assault looks like you've got much less time to input your commands this time around-- to the point where I think I'd be cool with it. Though, I do hope that each character has some sort of unique animation, and that the blue charge color is removed. YES, I understand that the game is in development.
Her fight style looks 10 times better then Asuka's, seriously in T6 Asuka with a few others are the most boring character in the game
Jun looks phenomenal so far. I'm really impressed with what I'm seeing lately. Seems they're keeping her T2 moves with some huge twists thrown in. I was pretty skeptical about her even being in TT2 at first but I'm Diggin this shit. A+
@AAK
the problem is t5.0 is that there was not even supposed to be a t5.0. t5.1 came out to remedy t5.0, but for whatever reason, it was never released to console.
~~
but that is old news anyway. in today's games, they've implimented online patching for arcades ... tekken6 arcade continued to get patched even after the international version came out, which is essentially the same as the console version. I don't know if you've noticed, but if you watch some of the japanese vids, you can small changes like hitspark color changes that never made it to console, etc.
so basically, there won't be another "t5.0"
tagging near wall is looking stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Namco fix it please!
I guess it would be pretty cool if each character had a specific "tag-in" animation, or is that asking too much? ;p
SERIOUSLY is Tekken 6 dead in US? No vote for T6???
check out shoryuken.com poll
http://shoryuken.com/content/game-will-most-popular-evo-2011-4316/
@ Pillow
Honestly, judging by the recent turnouts for so many big tournies like KiT, WCWZ, among others... Tekken 6 scene is definitely dying and in its last legs. ATL crew I assume is the exception judging by the strong participation @ FR.
Other thing to consider is that the pole was posted in a 2D dominant forum and Tekken 6 is the only 3D game & oldest game out of the pack. It's a miracle it even got some votes.
Tekken is dying pretty much everywhere except for asia. Can't say what could you do, the oh so important casual market just isn't interested in a game that is generally held as a button mashing juggle fest, as stated. Bad online doesn't help either. Tag 2 could revitalize Tekken a bit, I mean look at all these idiots creaming for Jun. It'll probably also draw in the old TTT players... for a while, until they realize it's just not the same game. Tekken should've just stayed on DR, that's the Tekken I've seen that had the most players and interest, definetly was better than 6.
Jun Kazama looks awesome here, I like her new animations in particular
wow. looks like she's have a ZAFINA+ASUKA movelist. great comeback for jun.
though it seems hard working on bound then tag juggle execution.